5.0 heads question

[justindwright]

ok i have a shortblock out of a 91 mustang, this is what i have so far, explorer upper and lower intake, with 65mm TB, speed density, underdrive pulleys, no ac, stock cam, 1.6 roller rockers, 255lph fuel pump, bbk adjustable fuel pressure regulator, guage for regulator, 9mm ford racing wires, stock ignition system, 3.73 gears posi, Full exhaust, 1 and 5/8 headers....yadda yadda........... Now, what heads should i get?!?! Afrs or gt40x's????? keep in mind this is a stock cammed motor... and if so how many CC's for the heads????
Thanks guys

[NYC LS8]

AFR 165s. With a stock cam, I'd at least step up the rocker ratio to 1.7s. Be prepared to be in the market for a higher stall converter, too, because it's gonna launch like a Ford Taurus.

[pro-five-oh]

If you can afford AFRs, DO IT. If you want to run boost later you can go one step larger than 165s. smile.gif

NYC is right, the 1.7s would be ideal for a stock cam because you get the smooth idle and a lot more punch above 3000rpm or so.

How old is the tranny? Just want to make sure you don't blow the budget on the motor and wind up with nothing because the worn out AOD bit the dust.

[BMNLSC]

Both NYCLSC and Pro-Five-Oh are correct in their statements. I had the luxury of having both of the heads you mention on the BMNLSC and can tell you that both heads are great, however, the AFR's breathe so much better. Read my setup in my sig. I switched from the GT-40X heads to the AFR 165's. I do not know what I officially gained horsepower wise, but I can tell you that one could feel the difference between the two heads in raw pick up power.

AFR's were tested by MM & FF and out of all the aftermarket heads out there they produced 90 horsepower on a stock motor out of the box. That is what sold me on the AFR's. Definitely worth the money.

BMN

[ December 16, 2005: Message edited by: BMNLSC ]

[justindwright]

my AOD is being built up pretty good, what stall torque convertor do u guys reccomend, and what does a ford taurus take off like? lol

[pro-five-oh]

A Taurus takes off like a wild stallion...well compared to a Ford 500, I guess. tongue.gif

I'd recommend a 2000-2500 stall convertor for a stock cam. If you plan on keeping a stock cam, you probably want a convertor that is good for stock needs, namely traffic.

[NYC LS8]

Ok, maybe I shoulda said "Ford Escort" :D

[justindwright]

ok guys, do i want emmisions or not, the car has no cats or anything...? Is it really neccesary to upgrade the valve springs???? And do i want 58 CC chambers or 61CC chambers? Also for pedestol or stud rockers?

[NYC LS8]

If you can get the car inspected without any emissions equipment (know someone), then go without it since you already have no cats.

The valve springs should be fine with the stock cam, and should be fine if you went with 1.7s. If they've got some mileage on them, I'd change them just for piece of mind.

The pedestal or stud rocker thing depends on what your rockers are currently.

[Desert Stallion]

AFR's hands down over anything in the FRPP catalog. Not saying that if you got a smokin' deal on a set of used GT40's that you should pass it up, but for very similar price tags there's no comparison.

The stock AFR valve springs are fine for what you're doing. You'd be notching pistons before you needed to change out the springs in the new AFR's. Now, the original AFR's had some spring issues where they were breaking in higher RPM use, but I think that was taken care of 4-5 years ago.

If emissions aren't an issue in your area, then why bother buying smog legal heads.

58cc heads if you want raised compression and absolutely needing to run premium fuel. 61cc heads are pretty close to stock, and you could get away with running 87 octane with the right tune.

Pedestal or stud mount is up to you and your budget. Obviously pedestal mount rockers means you can use what you have. Stud mount rockers are adjustable and can be either a blessing or curse depending on how quickly you learn to adjust them properly. ;) Really, stud mount is the way to go for a performance application, but there's lots of fast cars using pedestal mount heads.

[justindwright]

could i boost or spray 165's eventually?

[NYC LS8]

Of course.

[pro-five-oh]

could i boost or spray 165's eventually?

If you want to boost later, I'd recommend larger cc'd heads. AFR 185s would be better, much better.

http://www.airflowresearch.com/pages/185sbf_strp.htm

[Bluegrass]

A car like the Mark normally would not go above the AFR 165 (on 5L) or begin to lose lower end torque.
But if your sure you will be using a blower, the 185 heads and a cam change would be in order because the larger power increases will mainly be in the mid to higher ranges where airflow is needed.
The AFR 165 and 185 heads have the same exhaust port flow.
If using the 165 heads with a blower/juice then their exhaust porting only would be a good idea.

[justindwright]

ok, then what cam and hydraulic lifters would i want with the 185's???

[Bluegrass]

Your specific use and supporting combination will dictate the cam profile selected.
Go to www.compcam.com and load the 05 catalog.
On the cat page click on the index for 5L 85 to 95 engines.
Go to the Extreme Energy section and look at the suggested uses for each of their profiles in the three subsections (N/A, Nitrous and Blower).
I would then call them and talk it over by answering there specific questions and there reccomendation.
My presumption and only that, for you, would be the NX264HR or 284HR.
Conversion to Mass Air may be a consideration if your not converted already and chose a cam with a enough rough idle where Speed Density would be a problem.
You will need larger fuel injectors and a larger capacity fuel pump to support fuel flow for the higher HP levels.
Use you stock roller lifters.

[justindwright]

ok i want to stay speed density.....
I have a 255 Lph pump with a regulator and guage...How big of fuel injecters are we talkin here, and can i retain the stock fuel rail...?

[Bluegrass]

Staying SD engine control puts a limit on streetability if you are intending on changing the cam.
The MAP sensor uses intake vacuum to translate engine load to the EEC. If you change the cam for more performance then the MAP may sense the lower intake vacuum that results and over fuel at lower normal driving and can cause idle hunting. This becomes a tunning nitemare where you have to decide how much degradation you will tolerate for the increase in power.
With SD, 24 lb injectors is a large as the stock EEC will trim without getting into EEC tuning changes.
Your fuel pump is more than enough and the rails are are also good to over 500 hp.
I am throwing these bits of info out but don't know what you are intending.
The stock SD 5L is good for close to 300 hp in stock form with 7 psi boost from a Kenne Bell blower.
Just going with AFR165 heads, blower and exhaust will get you to this limit and still retain drivability without any other changes except possibly using 24 lb injectors.

[pro-five-oh]

Staying SD engine control puts a limit on streetability if you are intending on changing the cam.

Not if you get a few tuning sessions with a dyno, a laptop and a twEECer. :) You can use just about any injector with the stock rails (heck, our Incon Mustang had 42lbhr injectors on the stock rails) stock SD computer with a twEECer. People often make the mistake of aftermarket rails, unless they actually have a car that puts 600hp to the wheels. Ditto the coil, keep it stock.

You are on the right track dude, why don't you make a list of 1) all the parts you have and 2) all the parts you want to put in the future and we can make sure its all gonna work out? Okie-dokie?

[Bluegrass]

Be sure you understand my position of 'stock' without many changes being a limit.
Certainly the sytem can be take past the 300 hp limit area but not without tuning and changes as you say.
At this point he dosn't know enough about what to do and how far he can go.
It's hard to get a grasp onto the role all the parts play in any given combination, at the start.
To say it another way, my "stock setup" with the blower has a ceiling of close to 300 hp. To go more boost and/or heads, cam, injectors etc. requires other considerstions.
Running this by anyone the first time is never fully understood.
Just taking injectors alone vs the flywheel hp tells us that 19 lb injectors are good for about 280 hp+/- so that in it'self is an N/A limit and about 20 hp higher in blower use with an FMU.

42 LB injectors are rated to the following hp range using a BSFC of .5;
42 x.8 /.5 x 8 = 537.6 hp.

When the system is engineered to standards instead of cut and try tunning then you have the best chance of obtaining good overall drivability.
There are such parameters as duty cycle that should be between 10 and 80% for normal designs. This can be taken higher the 80% but then how does one know the engine is not running out of fuel at WOT top rpm unless other instrumentation is used to monitor.
Now doing this with Speed Density is a real trick and does take a lot of tunning that I would never tell anyone that it is so easy to do unless paying some one to do all the setup and tuning.