What cars compete with the VIII?

[Desert Stallion]

As far as cars in its class and era? GM had the Caddy had the Eldorado/ETC which made as much and more power (ETC's had 300HP) and weighed about the same, then there's the Buick Riv, which had a supercharged 3.8L V6 and didn't make nearly the power of its V8 counterparts (225HP) but it weighed fractionally less than the Caddy and Mark. The Olds Aurora? I guess maybe the Sebring would fit in this category?

What else is there, within reason? Someone's going to chime in with an AMG Mercedes or something, but they're not really fair just in terms of pricing.

Then there's the parent-company coupes, the T-Bird/Cougar, the Monte Carlo...

Anyway, point to the rant was just trying to figure out who did it right and with what car they did it right with. I like my VIII most of the time, but the car is sooooo over-engineered and so heavy and so damn pricey that it's almost not worth the pro's of the 270HP motor and IRS, especially when something breaks.

So did any car company do the 'sport coupe' thing right during the 90's?

[NYC LS8]

Someone cheated you out of 10hp :D

[DaKat]

Or 20! tongue.gif

[NYC LS8]

Yes, but he doesn't have an LSC ;)

[Desert Stallion]

Yeah, but the '93 computers have a more aggressive tune, so I've heard. tongue.gif

C'mon, stop whorin' my post!

[pro-five-oh]

You are forgetting the luxury imports, the cars the Mark was created to compete with. (which was kinda a joke since its such a frickin tank, lol)

1) Lexus SC 400 (the leaner, meaner, and slower Mark)
2) Acura Legend Coupe (6-spd models are nice)
3) And of course Mercedes coupes that are double the price

EDIT: forgot the sweet Infiniti Q45 and ho-hum Lexus LS400. The Q is a goner these days, all victims of variable valve timing failure and the LS 400 is better but still a 4dr.

[ June 30, 2005: Message edited by: pro-five-oh ]

[pro-five-oh]

Oh and no more complaining about the Mark being expensive to repair...ever priced the rear air springs on a 1993 LS 400? How about $1100 including labor at the dealer! :eek:


EDIT: Or any other comparable import that has RWD, a DOHC V8, and a super complex suspension?

[ June 30, 2005: Message edited by: pro-five-oh ]

[Desert Stallion]

quote:Originally posted by pro-five-oh:
Oh and no more complaining about the Mark being expensive to repair...ever priced the rear air springs on a 1993 LS 400? How about $1100 including labor at the dealer! :eek:


EDIT: Or any other comparable import that has RWD, a DOHC V8, and a super complex suspension?


So you're saying that no one got the performance luxury coupe right. tongue.gif

[NYC LS8]

I'll chime in with the BMW 850. Eventhough it was way more expensive than the Mark series, it's a hot car.

[pro-five-oh]

Yup, throw that one in with the S-class coupes.

DS, the perfect coupe is a 1982 Granada GL with griggs, EFI, 6spd, cobra brakes and a stoker motor. tongue.gif

[Desert Stallion]

I was thinking a Fairmont Futura coupe with a rev-happy destroked fuelie 5.0L (289ci), 6-speed and a turbo or two, tubular front and rear suspensions, fiberglass and composite panels everywhere... In essence, a 2600-2700lbs RWD coupe that makes 500+HP, is totally streetable, and costs $35/month to fully insure. :cool:

I would like that.

[pro-five-oh]

Ya know, I agree.

You've thought about it more than I have. :D

Just make that car a nerdy Granada coupe and I'd be all over it. smile.gif

[Desert Stallion]

quote:Originally posted by pro-five-oh:
You've thought about it more than I have.

Every time I get in the VIII and something else breaks, I think, 'My Fairmont never did this to me.' Come to think of it, my Mustang's never did either. :(

I think it's time I get rid of the VIII. I know of a super-clean '95 V6 Mustang coupe that'll be for sale here soon... :eek:

[NYC LS8]

You sure you're not female? Bi-polar? Bi-polar female? You change your mind more than I change women, fer chrissakes. Just the other day in JPs new track times thread you're talking of coming to get him soon, now you wanna get rid of the thing. tongue.gif

[ June 30, 2005: Message edited by: NYC LSC ]

[Desert Stallion]

That was before the alternator, check engine light, and new clunking sound from the rear passenger side, all within 3 days. :mad:

Not to mention that the A/C has a slow leak from one the low-side valve.

And it leaks a little oil from the pan.

And every single rubber bushing needs replaced, be it a motor mount, a diff mount, swaybar bushings, etc.

And the steering rack is dying.

And the headlights need refinished every few months regardless of how much I wax them. They'll be sanded through to nothing in a year. They just weren't designed for AZ sunlight.

And the transmission shifts when I don't want it to, as most auto's do.

And... Well, you get the point. It's been a love/hate relationship since I bought it, and though it's much better than it was then, the car just refuses to stay fixed for more than a month at a time. I mean, there's going to be nothing left to fix, but something will still break.

And no, I'm not female. I am however a Gemini. :D

[pro-five-oh]

Seafoam will fix all of that. Have faith in seafoam!

[Desert Stallion]

The only way Seafoam will fix this car is if I douse the car in it followed by a carelessly discarded burning match.

[pro-five-oh]

LOL!

While not totally true with Mark VIIs, seems that you truly get what you pay for with Mark VIIIs. My $5400 car has needed a little work here and there (my hours of modifications don't count) but I can't complain about its reliability!

Only one of the eleventy billion alternators I put on it actually left me stranded! tongue.gif

[Desert Stallion]

Wait a sec, you're talking about your current VIII. What about the original one?

[pro-five-oh]

quote:Originally posted by Desert Stallion:
Wait a sec, you're talking about your current VIII. What about the original one?

The original one was bought as a five year old with 30k on the odometer and an extended warranty from Ford. It needed a belt tensioner, an alternator, a new transmission (according to the dealer, I thought the Mercon V thing would fix it) and a few suspension pieces (another dealer rip off) all under warranty the car was flawless. I outta take the rose colored glasses off, I guess.

By 2000 the rubber suspension parts were breaking down like your car. I blame it on Houston roads. Had the front suspension done and everything was peachy for almost 3 years, until I fixed that damn oil leak. :(

The new car has more mileage, but its tighter and seems all original except for the front springs, new upper control arms and rear shocks. That was all before I bought it, not to mention its the rarest color combo'd LSC I've ever seen. smile.gifThe highway miles were good to it. This is a solid car, maybe not foxbody cheap to fix (stupid plastic radiator), but one of those ultimate bang for the buck cars that make you wonder why anyone would buy any of its competitors.

The only thing that worries me now is a rattle near the cats (more reason for headers and Randomtech high flow cats) the transmission occasionally bangs when downshifting, and...ummm, that's about it.

[ June 30, 2005: Message edited by: pro-five-oh ]

[Desert Stallion]

Which oil leak killed your car again, just so I know what not to do with mine since it's leaking oil.

Props to Mark VIII's with coil spring conversions though, because that let me buy new front upper control arms for $25-30 from Ebay. :D

[pro-five-oh]

This one:
http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article41.html

All in all, I still think the Mark VIII is the performance, style and value leader for old Luxury cars. Every time my Dad's BMW 750 went in for work the bill was well over $1000. And it kept going back to the dealer for the same problems, mostly A/C.

Mark VIIIs are pretty sweet.

[Desert Stallion]

That's kinda funny that the filter adapter is the one that was leaking for you. It's probably the only gasket on my car that isn't at least seaping. :(

[ltdltc]

The 1992-2002 Eldorado really copied and took many cues from the Mark VII (which isn't a bad thing). I like the interior more than the Mark VIII, I think its more passenger oriented.

Sure we can get into arguments about how reliable or unreliable the Northstar is but the generation of the Edlo was the best and its a shame its no longer made. FWD for sure but it definately handles well.

[ltdltc]

Oh and this year or next the Monte Carlo will be equipped with a 5.3l V8 with MDS (similar to the Hemi's version). I just don't know what to thik about that one....

[luxuryrules]

The VIII was, plain and simple, part of the ongoing competition with Caddy. The ElDorado was the only real competitor for it, and at a bit of a stretch the SC400 could've been figured in. But, FWIW the VIII was made for a limited audience that most other manufacturers chose to ignore.

And that 5.3 MDS is also going in the Grand Prix GTP (I *think* it's GTP). Probably going to end up in a whole bunch of different GM vehicles. So far, I just think it's about time the Monte Carlo got a V8, the V6s just made me sick. If they're smart they'll make it RWD just like the old school Montes, but I don't expect that to happen. I just want to see how the MDS works out in the long run, seems to be a pretty complex system and to me that sets off alarm bells of expensive repair bills.

[Silver Cobra]

I thought it was bad enough mounting a 4.6 mod motor transversely but a 5.3???

Why??? You're so close GM to making a decent sports sedan but noooo, you have to count them beans again don't you? :mad:

[ltdltc]

quote:Originally posted by luxuryrules:
The VIII was, plain and simple, part of the ongoing competition with Caddy.


Pretty much, if you could stuff the Eldorado interior into a Mark VIII that would be a sharp car.


http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/4995/1999eldorado3of.jpg

I have driven a 1996 Eldorado and my other friends 1995 Mark VIII. The Mark is tight and and is certainly fast and handles a little better. But the Eldo felt faster and more comfortable, the seats are awesome. I was never a fan of the wrap around dash which is why under most situations I'd choose the Eldo.

For a while I was going to buy a Eldorado, but after seeing my friends Eldo start to fall apart from neglect and the PITA factor of working on it, I looked at a few Mark VIIIs and I now don't want one of those either. I'm still thinking of the Eldorado, but probably won't unless i can find some killer deal on one.

But don't get me wrong, I think the Mark VIII and Eldorado were better than their foreign competition.

So now I got a lot of cars to look at and decide, I'm all over the map. 2000+ F-Body, early model XK8, 2000+ Continental and a Q45. I got a long walk and some decisions to make on what replaces my Town Car.


The Impala SS will also get the 5.3l. Its to bad they killed the Bonneville that was one of GMs better looking newer cars that was actually worth a damn....

[ July 03, 2005: Message edited by: ltdltc ]

[Hizhonor]

There's another GM product that does compete with the Mark VIII and that is the salways overlooked Oldsmobile Aurora. Surprisingly quick and nimble... I got a chance to drive one a year or so ago and I was astonished by it's capabilities. 4.0 liter V-8 with 250 hp .... not too shabby a vehicle and not a bad looker either. :cool:

[Desert Stallion]

Let's see, I do believe the Aurora was metioned here already. Damn, where did I read that...

Oh yeah, right here: quote:Originally posted by Desert Stallion:
...The Olds Aurora...

:D

[Silver Cobra]

I've looked at a lot of cars prior to buying my Conti. The Eldo was a nice sharp nimble car to drive but, as stated, the PITA factor of working on one just isn't worth my time. Oil consumption is a huge issue with Northstars. (I don't know about the news ones though). I did look at Auroras and as beautiful and powerful as they were, the earlier ones were plagued with electrical gremlins. The car was fitted with a "baby" Northstar and GM didn't exactly do a good job for a car of this price and market sector. Oh well.

[pro-five-oh]

Original sales material (40 page book given to dealers in 1993) placed the Mark with the SC400, Eldo and other V6 imported coupes. They also mentioned the VIII was a grown up hot rod for people wanting more luxury from their current cars: Supra, 300zx, Corvette, etc.

The target market Ford chose was spot on, but the car couldn't live up to such a high task. Too big, too soft.

I thought the Eldo was a raging POS the moment I saw that huge gap between the fender and the A-pillar (WTF where they thinking?) and the horrible rattle the window glass would make because of the poorly engineered frameless doors. I also thought the plastics and switchgear was cheap, not good for a $40k-ish car. Not to mention the Mark was a better performer with better fuel economy (taller gears), had unique styling (love it or hate it) and the 4.6L is a more tunable and cost effective motor than the Northstar.

SC, the 5.3L motor in FWD is much easier than the 4.6L. Its probably 40% smaller because of OHV and just harkens back to the days of 4.9L Caddies. Not like it matters, that much power in FWD isn't gonna make car enthusiasts excited and the sub-par quality isn't gonna dissuade most people from their opinions of GM.

DS, when you want to sell the car, I got dibs on the super coupe rear swaybar. smile.gif

[Hizhonor]

LOL tongue.gif That'll teach me for not reading EVERY reply ! redface.gif

quote:Originally posted by Desert Stallion:
Let's see, I do believe the Aurora was metioned here already. Damn, where did I read that...

Oh yeah, right here:

:D

[ July 03, 2005: Message edited by: Hizhonor ]

[Desert Stallion]

Pro, you got it. :D Before the car goes it gets one more chance in the form of new urethane diff bushings, a diff brace that I'm fabbing that's modeled after the MN12 Performance piece I've seen pics of, and new solid rubber motor and tranny mounts.

If it all goes to Hell, you can have dibs on all of it. smile.gif

So out of curiousity, how's a wrong wheel drive car with 300HP handle at full boogey? Seriously, I'd think coming off the line would be a chore for even great drivers due to torque steer. Hell, I've seen ricer kids lose control of their VTECH Integra's and put them into walls and curbs and other cars because they couldn't hold onto 'em, and these behemoths like the Caddy's and whatever have a ton more torque.

[pro-five-oh]

Well I was hoping you wouldn't sell it, but yeah, I'd be interested. You know where to find me. smile.gif

[Desert Stallion]

Oh no, there will be no selling this one if I can't make it work. It'll get stripped of anything of value, and then I know of the perfect field where I'm going to practice my special effects techniques on it. :mad:


:D

[ltdltc]

quote:Originally posted by pro-five-oh:

I thought the Eldo was a raging POS the moment I saw that huge gap between the fender and the A-pillar (WTF where they thinking?) and the horrible rattle the window glass would make because of the poorly engineered frameless doors. I also thought the plastics and switchgear was cheap, not good for a $40k-ish car. Not to mention the Mark was a better performer with better fuel economy (taller gears), had unique styling (love it or hate it) and the 4.6L is a more tunable and cost effective motor than the Northstar.



IIRC the Eldorado has 3:83 drive ratio. And I have not seen any with that gap, are you sure the car you saw it on wasn't in an accident.

Eh the plastics on the switch handle doesn't look that bad,
http://img298.imageshack.us/img298/6007/02cadillaceldoradowh295yt.jpg

Plus the BOSE sounds system really blows the JBL out of the water IMO.

[Desert Stallion]

Man, that looks kinda... bland. tongue.gif

[luxuryrules]

I'll throw in with DS, that is just a touch bland. But, compared to a lot of interiors I'm seeing nowadays, it's still among the best in the market. I'd drive one.

One of my exes had a 95 Aurora, a lot of fun to drive but back to back against the Mark I'd take the Mark. Lest we forget, however, the Aurora is a sedan. It's some stiff competition in the luxury sedan category, and I bet it could give some Lexuses & Mercs a run for their money, but I wouldn't be too quick to throw it in the ring with the Mark, Eldo, and SC. Or maybe I'm just subcategorizing too much?

[pro-five-oh]

quote:Originally posted by ltdltc:
IIRC the Eldorado has 3:83 drive ratio. And I have not seen any with that gap, are you sure the car you saw it on wasn't in an accident.

Eh the plastics on the switch handle doesn't look that bad,
http://img298.imageshack.us/img298/6007/02cadillaceldoradowh295yt.jpg

Plus the BOSE sounds system really blows the JBL out of the water IMO.

The gap btw the fender and the A-pillar is bad on all of them because of the shape of the fender butts against the A-pillar. It just a bad design compared to the Seville.

I liked BOSE, until you cranked it up and the bass started to get flabby...this was on a Fleetwood, not a Eldo so maybe the Eldos were better in that area.

Push down the turn signal stalk and return it to center, feels like you're snapping a wine glass stem. Cheap!

I'm rattlin' on too long, blah, blah, blah...the Eldo is a decent enough car, it never catered to the performance crowd but in a way was better since it wasn't even a poser like the LSC versions of Mark VIIIs. Look so nice, drive like a tank. smile.gif

[Silver Cobra]

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/6/web/210000-210999/210884_11_full.jpg

The only Caddy from the last 25 years I'd buy :D :D

[Desert Stallion]

Hey, the REAR wheels are spinning!?!?! :eek:

:D

[pro-five-oh]

I used to hate those 'woods just like the Impalas and Buicks for being so bloated and ugly...but they actually had decently crafted interiors, looked somewhat elegant with nice wheels, and had that LT-1.

Time has been good to that car, looks even better with the faux-STS grille. :cool:

[Desert Stallion]

Haha, holy crap that's funny! I just ran a quick errand and what should pull up next to me but a '94+ Fleetwood! All I have to say is... HOLY SH*T THAT THING'S HUGE!!! :eek:

I mean, crap man, that car dwarfs my Mark VIII. It's gotta be 18+ feet long (a good foot and a half longer than the VIII) and weighs, what, 5,000lbs? It's bloody huge!

The damn thing would need a LT1 motor just to get rolling! :eek:

:D

[Jon90LSC]

DS: The stabilitrak does a pretty good job of keeping the front wheels pointed straight at full throttle, at least on the newer Northstar cars.

I like the Fleetwoods too. I thought it would be cool to have a black one with the blacked out grille and all that was actually fast.

[luxuryrules]

quote:Originally posted by Desert Stallion:
Hey, the REAR wheels are spinning!?!?! :eek:

:D

IIRC the LT1 powered Caddies were RWD, essentially a pimped out Caprice as I understand it. It's a pity they couldn't have just turned that Northstar so that it points the right way...

[Silver Cobra]

I wanted (and still want) a Fleetwood more than my Conti but their really rare in my area :(. I can live with optispark :rolleyes: . I've seen some trick things done with B-bodies: Bonneville seat replacement, trans am gague cluster replacement, Riveria centre console with integrated nav/mp3 player and 383 Stroker engine swap. You know, the usual :D

Seriously the 'wood can keep up with my car. It may weigh a lot but can still hit 60mph in 8.2seconds :eek:

[ltdltc]

The 1992-1996 Cadillac Fleetwood was the largest sedan manufactured in America in the 90s. It was 6" longer and 2" wider than a similar year Town Car.