All the Performance Versions of LS cancelled..

[Lscman]

Leave it to Ford to wave the white flag and miss an opportunity to corner the domestic performance rwd market.

They pulled the plug on the performance versions because the LS is selling too poorly.....DUH! A single version can't satisfy both old blue-haired ex-Conti owners and 25 year old driving enthusiasts! The old lady bitches about stiff steering and harsh suspension while the young guy wants 400 HP, Borla, 18" wheels, big brakes and 800lb Eibachs.

Why can't Ford see what the 4dr M3 & M5 series does for BMW showroom traffic? The performance "M" & standard "i" versions allow the car line to be optimized to satisfy a wide range of buyers with minimal redesign and retooling. :rolleyes:

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: Lscman ]

[pro-five-oh]

UNBELIEVABLE. When did this happen?

They must be waiting to see if the "V" series Cadillacs (CTS is first with the LS1/LS6 motor) will succeed in the market.

But that's not a good reason to can the next Hot Rod Lincoln! Even worse the "more powerful" LS V8 has only 40 more horsies than a V6 Accord! And with a 6-spd stick in the Honda, I wonder which one will be faster???

One of these days...a new generation LSC will spank the competition...and Bill Ford can make a sappy commercial about it just like the Mustang. Do you hear me, oh mighty King of Dearborn!?!?! :mad:

[Monty^]

According to this article, LS sales are up 68% and going strong. FORD sales report, Sept 2002 (http://www.off-road.com/ford/news/2002_11/septembersales/)

[Lscman]

Read your link closer, Monty:

There are always monthly "spikes" due to mfg & shipping, advertizing, changes in interest rates & lease deals. As such, "September" is hardly a benchmark.

In reality, yearly LS sales are down:

The 2002 January thru September YTD (year-to-date) sales of the LS went down -2.2%, compared to the same period last year (2001). Sales of new products should grow, so Ford is evaluating the viability of this model...considering these LS sagging/flat sales figures.

IMHO, it's because the model tries to cater to an impossibly wide group. They are not attracting educated youth with the car's muted look & watered down tune. The typical buyer is an aging, "displaced" former Continental owner and they don't like the firm ride or marginal interior dimensions. Lincoln is just plain screwing up. They sorely need i and M series equivalents tuned for their respective buyers.

Assuming the 6 spd manual option is DOA, I think a true "sport option" could be rolled out with a simple OEM suspension, exhaust & brake upgrade. Check "Y" for youth, "N" for classic luxo ride. The louder exhaust could provide an extra 10 HP to excite those who care.

At that point, the current LS could be detuned for the blue har crowd, providing a softer, wallowing ride, pillow seats, overassisted steering etc. This would hardly cost anything more than brochure revisions and a few more assembly line parts bins.

[ December 01, 2002: Message edited by: Lscman ]

[351CJ]

LS sales are down 5% year to date. Of course it's been 3 months since I've seen a LS ad on TV around here.

If the performance LS model is really gone, I'm sure the dealers had a part in its demise. Lincoln dealers don't want anything to do with performance, hated the MTX LS with most refusing to stock them.

If the Hot Rod LS is dead, it is a very bad (& stupid) move by Ford.

[funkcity]

Lscman

What is YOUR source for this extremely dissapointing information?

Thanx in advance

[Lscman]

Are you speaking about sagging sales figures? If so, it is not my source. I read the link posted by Monty. See above.

Autoweek and other publications have announced the cancellation of the M fighter project.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Lscman ]

[Bob Turner]

Ford doesn't seem to look at their competition and sees what they are doing. GM is seems to always be innovating new ideas, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I am one of those guys that likes BOTH Ford and GM. I have a Ford Windstar and planning to buy an LS.

Ford is TOO conservative. That's why the Mustang trails the Corvette........and always will... unless they make some big changes.

Bob :cool:

[ February 03, 2003: Message edited by: Bob Turner ]

[lsondubz]

The performance LS they had been planning on was wrong in many aspects. Sure it had a ton of power, but for 1, the rims were horrible. That's looks. If they are going to go with a "race style" wheel, they could've selected a nicer designs. For 2, it was overpriced. $55-60k is the last I heard on pricing. And lastly, with 350hp, I believe it was expected to run 14 sec 1/4 miles, cmon now, I can name a ton of cars for half that price that run under that, quality, and look good to most, and most importantly "HAVE AN AFTERMARKET"

If Lincoln wants to break into the "younger" market they need to lower pricing, and get the weight of the LS down so it can run faster times. If they want to compete with the M3 and bring buyers their way. Some might say oh, well the LS is 4 doors the M3 is 2 doors, well maybe that's what people want otherwise they wouldn't buy it? So Lincoln needs to get on the ball and do soemthing to the LS to set it apart.. *AFTERMARKET ACCESSORIES* are one of the things

Flame away :D

[pro-five-oh]

I think the LS has potential. Only problem is that it needs to be a bit lighter and needs the 4.6L V8. The whole wanna-be Jaguar motor is just wrong, Lincoln shouldn't take a back seat to Jag just because they are both owned by Ford.

My solution is to move the LS over to the DEW-lite platform that the new Mustang is gonna use. It appears to be able to hold a 4.6 with all the latest suspension and chassis goodies of the LS. This will make the LS a true competitor to the BMW 5.

But, as previously mentioned, the L-M dealers are the problem. They are so conservative you can hear their shoes squeak on carpet. They never sold performance and they seem to not care at all.

1970s: The Pantera was sold in Lincoln Mercury dealers. It was an Italian supercar with a 351 Cleveland or Windsor motor...all Ford under the skin. It was dirt cheap and had every reason to succeed. The LM dealers never promoted it to the public and it flopped.

1980s: Ford rebadged their european Ford Scorpio and Sierra into the "Merkur" division, sold at LM dealers. They were fantastic cars that had a decent chance at getting to MB and BMW buyers. LM could never sell/promote it to the right buyers. It failed in about 4 years.

The LS isn't doomed to fail, but everyone needs to try harder. Maybe product planners and the dealers will get it "right" when the redesign the LS. Maybe when the next Continental comes out. :rolleyes:

[351CJ]

quote: I think the LS has potential. Only problem is that it needs to be a bit lighter and needs the 4.6L V8. The whole wanna-be Jaguar motor is just wrong, Lincoln shouldn't take a back seat to Jag just because they are both owned by Ford.

Well, pro-five-0 you're not going to pull any weight out of the LS by putting the 4.6L into it. The all aluminum DOHC 4.6L weights 80 lb more than the AJ-V8.

The AJ V8 - 3.9L , 4.0L & 4.2L are great engines. They are far more refined than the 4.6L. Very quiet and smooth, the 4.6L is a bit crude feeling compared to the 3.9L.

Finally, I'm not so sure the performance version of the LS is dead. Yes the McLaren LS is dead, another victum of the Lincoln dealers, but there may be something like a SVT version of the LS still coming for '04.

[mikeb]

What L-M seems to loose sight of is that their "typical buyer" is five years older than dead. They have to educate their salesforce as to the direction LM is trying to go. I just bought a 2002 LS8 Sport Edition and knew more about the car than the salesman. I think its a very good car (not great but very good). What sold me was the deal, $3000 rebate + 0% for 5 years (free money!), + 3 years free maintanence. If they are going after the younger buyer, they have to appeal to them, not the country club set. The blue haired old ladies couldn't care less if the car was powered by a hamster on a treadmill or a blown big block. Caddy made the same mistake 10 years ago with the Allante; by the time they got around to giving that car some huevos by dropping the Northstar in it the bean counters had already puuled the plug and it was history.

[Lscman]

This was a great thread. Perhaps someone could launch another one for spirited discussion. Your turn. :D

[pro-five-oh]

quote:Originally posted by 351CJ:
Well, pro-five-0 you're not going to pull any weight out of the LS by putting the 4.6L into it. The all aluminum DOHC 4.6L weights 80 lb more than the AJ-V8.

80lbs! Didn't know that. I guess I just want to hear that 4.6 growl that I love so much in my Mark VIII in a new Lincoln...I mean, a new Lincoln that isn't an SUV.

Though I bite my tongue when I say it, I wouldn't be surprised if the hi-po LS is history...Ford had grandiose plans for the 1999 Cougar and all of them got canned.

If the LS is ever gonna "succeed" in the high performance sedan market it really needs to step out of the shadows of the X-type. I myself think the 4.6 is a good way to do it... ;)

[351CJ]

quote:Originally posted by pro-five-oh:


80lbs! Didn't know that. I guess I just want to hear that 4.6 growl that I love so much in my Mark VIII in a new Lincoln...I mean, a new Lincoln that isn't an SUV.

Though I bite my tongue when I say it, I wouldn't be surprised if the hi-po LS is history...Ford had grandiose plans for the 1999 Cougar and all of them got canned.

If the LS is ever gonna "succeed" in the high performance sedan market it really needs to step out of the shadows of the X-type. I myself think the 4.6 is a good way to do it... ;)

Lincoln is doing engine noise tuning for each model. The 2003 LS-V8 has a more aggressive sound now when you step on the gas hard (I have test driven one).

Best I know, the performance LS is still alive, supercharged 3.9L for 2004. Lincoln has also made some prototypes that have the 5.0L DOHC engine (similar to the "Cammer" crate engine SVT is now selling). As far as I know the 5.0L DOHC is dead, in the LS for now.

I agree with you that Ford had a bad history of bringing out a new model with lots of performance plans and then just doing nothing and letting the car die a slow painful death. If Lincoln does anything it will be because Caddy does something. So if the 5.7L CTS gets killed, I'm sure the hi-po LS will never see the light of day.

In the end pro-five-O you may get your wish. Someone who works at the Lima engine plant where the 3.9L is made posted on BON that they were told the 3.9L is dead at the end of 2004 or sometime in 2005.

The implication was that the 2005 LS will get the 4.6L DOHC, but some changes in the front suspension are required to fit it in. Since the LS will next be updated for the 2005 MY (could slip to 2006) going to the 4.6L makes sense.

I just hope they work on refining the 4.6L. I've had both and the 3.9L is much more refined. One of my tests is how much vibration and unwanted noise there is at high RPM. The 4.6L can't hold a candle to the 3.9L in this regard.

Finally, the 2003 LS-V8 is considerably faster than the '00-'02's. The '03 engine has variable cam timing and it has much better low end torque. In addition the better gas mileage that the VCT gives let Lincoln change the rear end ratio back to 3.58:1.

C&D just listed a 0-60 time of 6.5 seconds and quarter mile of 14.9 sec for the '03 LS V8.

Early '00 LS-V8's with the 3.58 do 0-60 in about 7.2 and 15.3 quarter mile. While later '00's, 01's and '02's with the 3:31 rear end are about 7.5 sec. 0-60 and 15.6 quarter mile.

[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: 351CJ ]

[351CJ]

quote:Originally posted by mikeb:
What L-M seems to loose sight of is that their "typical buyer" is five years older than dead. They have to educate their salesforce as to the direction LM is trying to go. I just bought a 2002 LS8 Sport Edition and knew more about the car than the salesman. I think its a very good car (not great but very good). What sold me was the deal, $3000 rebate + 0% for 5 years (free money!), + 3 years free maintanence. If they are going after the younger buyer, they have to appeal to them, not the country club set. The blue haired old ladies couldn't care less if the car was powered by a hamster on a treadmill or a blown big block. Caddy made the same mistake 10 years ago with the Allante; by the time they got around to giving that car some huevos by dropping the Northstar in it the bean counters had already puuled the plug and it was history.

LM cares dearly about the age of their customers. I saw somewhere that the median age for a LS is 51 and the median age for a Town Car is 67.

Unfortunately most LM dealers are stuck in a mindest of selling to 80 year olds who don't know a crankshaft from a chair.

When I bought my '00 LS I had to go to 7 dealers before I found one who had a saleman who knew more about the LS than I did. That's were I got my LS.

When I went to a dealer a couple of weeks ago to test drive a '03 LS, all the salesman wanted to do was tell me about what I great deal I could get on a Town Car. His opening offer was "I can give you $10K off on a TC."

I counted 37, 2003 TC's on their lot, 7, '02 LS's and a single '03 LS.

I had to tell him 3 times I had no interest in a TC before the lazy SOB would even go and find the keys for the '03LS. He was pretty much clueless about the differences in the '03 LS too.

The LS is a good car, but a GREAT car for the money. When I got my '00, I came to the conclusion that I would have to spend $10K to $15K to get something significantly better. With my latest car shopping I am coming to the same conclusion today.

[351CJ]

quote:Originally posted by 351CJ:


LM cares dearly about the age of their customers. I saw somewhere that the median age for a LS is 51 and the median age for a Town Car is 67.

Unfortunately most LM dealers are stuck in a mindest of selling to 80 year olds who don't know a crankshaft from a chair.

When I bought my '00 LS I had to go to 7 dealers before I found one who had a saleman who knew more about the LS than I did. That's were I got my LS.

When I went to a dealer a couple of weeks ago to test drive a '03 LS, all the salesman wanted to do was tell me about what I great deal I could get on a Town Car. His opening offer was "I can give you $10K off on a TC."

I counted 37, 2003 TC's on their lot, 7, '02 LS's and a single '03 LS.

I had to tell him 3 times I had no interest in a TC before the lazy SOB would even go and find the keys for the '03LS. He was pretty much clueless about the differences in the '03 LS too.

The LS is a good car, but a GREAT car for the money. When I got my '00, I came to the conclusion that I would have to spend $10K to $15K more to get a significantly better car. With my latest car shopping I am coming to the same conclusion today.

[BlownSVT]

New to this Message Board, so first HELLO all. Secondly, I just recently bought my wife a 02 LS V8 Sport........I believe it is the LSE package, it has everything. Anyway, This is our 3rd L-M product in a row the first 2 being a 99 Cougar V6 (1 of the first 500 run) and a 01 Cougar V6 C2 package (very eye appealing package)we traded from the first Cougar, because my wife really enjoyed the car and it was very competitively priced compared to the 2 door Accords and Solaras actually thousands under either with the same options. She is not a HP freak like me so it was plenty for her. The second Cougar was very "eye catching" with the unique blue color and interior package, yet I was planning on trading for the Cougar S model that was supposed to be out and wasn't. I got kinda' supicious and found out that it was axed and I don't understand. It was even listed as an option in the 01' flier thing at the dealership. This would have DEFINITELY made it more appealing to the "younger" import scene with some REAL power to back up the sporty looks. Who knows they may have not had to discontinue the Cougar line if they actually provided what the masses wanted. Nothing like a performance anything to grab my attention.

So with that being said, we went to the L-M dealership for our next vehicle and were looking at the new Aviator. I liked it and would have probably have bought it if I didn't ask my wife one last time if she was sure that she wouldn't rather have a Lexus GS 300 or a LS V8 instead before we made the deal final. This question was posed in front of the sales lady and I saw her eyes light up. She said "if you don't mind an 02, I can make you one heck of a deal on one today." We went out and looked and chose between the few they had left (luckily 2 in the "right" color) and we worked the deal. 0.9% APR for 5yrs, 3yrs of service, $7,600 in rebates, excellent trade in on the 01' Cougar, and a bunch of dough off the LS ..... VERY REASONABLE. I saved Mucho Denero compared to the Aviator and my wife is extatic. I paid less for the Lincoln than I did my Lightning.

Now with that being said, I am very happy with the 02 LS V8 and I think the interior is alot nicer than most of the "auto mags" give it credit for. The 5spd auto xmsn shifts smoothly (although the auto-shift is about pointless), it has good power when you get it revving. And it handles nicely for a sedan. I like it and I hope they do nothing but improve on it. Thanks for letting me put my 2 cents in and I look forward to more informative posts like this. Later, Jimmy

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: BlownSVT ]

[Lscman]

Good to hear you like it. Might not be as trendy, but the LS will be more enjoyable than any SUV....including the hipo Bimmers, Mercedes and Porsche.

I saw that Porsche SUV at the auto show and things came to mind like concede...throw in the towel. I turned, burped and walked in the other direction while folks gazed at it in envy...sporting wood. What a sad era.

When will sanity return? A $50K SUV with high center of gravity & short wheelbase can not handle, ride, brake or offer the efficiency of a $12K car.

Half of us want to cruise the highway pushing a massive 6' tall cabin with 12" of ground clearance, 35" tall rubber, lift kit and 4WD. The other half chooses pebble-scraping slammed ricer for the same duty.

[pro-five-oh]

quote:Originally posted by Lscman:
I saw that Porsche SUV at the auto show and things came to mind like concede...throw in the towel. I turned, burped and walked in the other direction while folks gazed at it in envy...sporting wood. What a sad era.

This has GOT to be the most accurate and eloquent discription of how wrong the world has become with the SUV craze. I really had no problem with the Explorers or even the Lincoln derivatives: they are a great way to carry 6-ft tables and/or 30 bags of fertilizer and still have a nice ride the rest of the time. But a Porsche SUV? If it was 1999 I'd say the world has come to an end.

[Lscman]

The saddest part of the SUV craze is the total lack of utility & efficiency. Practicality is a non-issue. Imagine these ideas:

Option#1:

-Take a 4WD minivan and move the windshield about 3' rearward so it pushs the front seats back into the second row.
-Take the third row of seats & jamb them against the back window or delete them or stuff them in the floor and raise the floor height.
-Raise the leading edge of the hood about 1 foot to reduce visibility.
-Raise the whole frame/floorboard by about 1', so you can no longer drive your Harley or Honda inside or go to Sears for a washer & dryer or go to Home depot and get a dozen 4x8 sheets of plywood....and shut the hatch.
-design clever seatback latches so occupants can crawl on their knees into the optional 3rd row seating. Since the seat is jambed against the rear hatch, install exclusive cubby holes and hooks to hold cargo or carry it on your lap.
-Retain the minivan's 6' roof height, so you can squeeze it into a garage.
-Install huge 3" pipes the length of the rocker panels, so you can climb up an extra foot.
-Stick Whitney flares on the fenderwells.

What do you have?

Answer:

-Higher center of gravity for inferior handling.
-More wind resistance for worse mileage and performance
-Less room for cargo and passengers
-In actuality, you have an Eddie Bauer or Limited Explorer.....great. Yea, minivans suk.

Option #2:

Take a 1978 Ford Fairmont 5L station wagon and install flares, 18" lift kit, 3.73 gears, 32" diameter tires and 4WD.

Result: Big hit at the 2003 car show. Clone of the Jeep Cherokee. Terrible handling and a coefficient of drag equal to a UPS truck.

Progress....as measured by others. Not me.

[ March 22, 2003: Message edited by: Lscman ]

[stinky linky]

how come they can't make a 2 door ls coupe. like a 92 lsc special edition. all black. or even a wagon version? all the other makers have different variations. keep it fresh.

[I Sell Em]

Hello everybody, I am new to this site, and I wanted to comment. I am currently a salesperson at a Lincoln Mercury store in Illinois. First of all Lincoln Mercury could care less what we the representatives of L-M think about future plans. I hear it all the time, your cars need more power. I tell the Ford people this every chance I get. They don't care! They are to worried about making a car that will sell millions rather than setting up an image to make that happen in the future. The Marauder is the best example, Supposedly 302 HP, but the car can't get out of its own way, I have a Grand Marquis as a demo that feels almost as fast. One last thing. Lincoln is telling us that a 2 door convertible version of the LS will Be here in 2005 as 2006. I guess they are waiting for everybody to buy the Cadillac SLR so that they can say the market is dead. I guess it wouldn't make sense to ask me what I think. I only work directly with the Customers!

[351CJ]

Good to hear from you I Sell Em. I wonder how old your information is. I have heard that the 2dr convertable LS and a 2 dr coupe version made it as far as putting a vehicle launch team together at Wixom assembly, only to have teh launch team disbanded and both projects sent back to engineering because senior management decided that both of these cars were going t be too expensive to manufacture.