2 problems need help with

[JazzGuy]

Hello all,
I am the proud owner of a 84 Bill Blass edition Mark VII, with a couple of technical questions, and hope someone here can be of some assistance.
First of all, I seem to be having some sort of fuel problem.
In the mornings I have to "prime" the CFI to get the car to start. I was told it was a fuel pump problem, but I replaced the pump and filter, but still the problem remains. Then someone informed me it wasn't a pump/filter problem(which was nice to hear after doling out 150.00 for both), but a fuel pump relay problem. Now for my question. Where in the heck is that relay? Different sources say different places, rear of the passenger side shock tower....in the trunk, etc...please help me locate my missing relay!
My second question is in reference to my cruise control. Whild driving on a trip, the CC was working properly, then suddenly quit. I would like to check oit out, but once again, can't find it! (Those engineers at Lincoln sure like to hide stuff!)
Help me please!
Please reply to me at my email jazzguy@swbell.net

Thanks!

[pro-five-oh]

What exactly do you do to "prime" the fuel system to get it running? This doesn't sound like a relay problem, since those usually cause the fuel pump to completely shut off...the relay is only $13 so you can still replace it.

Your '84 Bill Blass might have a weird fuel pump relay location like my '83 Lincoln Continental. The relay would be in the trunk, close to the fuel pump shut off switch. Your shut off switch is in the driver's side of the trunk, but you'll find the exact location of it in the owner's manual.

Other locations for the relay would be on the passenger side fender apron right below your air intake tube, or under the driver's seat. Get a new relay from a parts shop (if they have a liberal return policy on relays) and search for a similar box attached to the wiring.

Good luck!

------------------
pro-five-oh

88 Cougar XR-7 5.0 HO
83 Continental 5.0 LO

My Mark VII tribute Page (http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/street/3545/mark.html)

[This message has been edited by pro-five-oh (edited January 30, 2001).]

[JazzGuy]

To prime the car, I pour a bit of gas in the throttle body....the car starts and runs...however, it seems to be running extremely rich...I have black smoke blowing from the exhaust. I understand that this car has 2 fuel pumps....a low pressure one in the gas tank, as well as the one under the rear passenger side. Could a failure in that pump cause this? As far as the relay, as you know, there are several relays on this car, and I find them in the places that the manual I have(Haynes, and it really sucks!)says there should be a relay, ie....there is one under the hood, on the passenger side, behind the shock tower mounted to the firewall.There is also 2 more "relays" on the driver side fender, next to the air ride compressor, and finally, there is one in the trunk of the car, passenger side. The auto parts store I called says there are 3 different fuel pump relays called for on this year model, but doesn't know where it is located. Also, I don't find upon inspection, any fuel pump cut-off switch in the trunk. Is it near the cut-off for the air ride? Is there someplace online where I might look up this info??
Thanks for the help so far, bear with me!

[This message has been edited by JazzGuy (edited January 30, 2001).]

[stinkin' Lincoln]

that is kinda wierd...

it actually sounds like a pressure leak somewhere in the system...

I bet that if when you go to start the car you turn the key to the run position (but don't start it) then turn it back off... then turn it to run and back off... etc. do this untill you hear a change in tone from the fuel pump...

I bet you're bleeding down pressure somewhere in the system and when you go to initally start it, the injectors are essentially dry...

Forrest

[mdcluth]

Not knowing history of your car, or how long you've owned it, let me just throw this out there....
Whenever I do a repair on older Ford/Lincoln/Mercury V-8's with similar problems, there's a few things I always do before things get too complicated.
I begin by replacing fuel filter and PCV valve. Next, the old spark plugs, cap & rotor go in the trash. It's amazing the difference these simple and inexpensive changes make in your ability to troubleshoot a fuel or ignition problem. The ignition and fuel systems on an EEC-IV car are very sensitive to spark and fuel supply pressure.
Like I said, I don't know how long you've owned your car, but many of these cars run so well that people treat them like their lawnmowers and never have them taken care of. I routinely see people bring in their cars with almost 80,000 miles, and little or nothing done to them.

------------------
"Lincoln Moves Me"

[JazzGuy]

I've owned my car since 90. yes, I have already replaced rotor,cap,plugs,wires, and fuel filter. I thought it might be a leak in pressure somewhere, but the thing holds pressure when tested.
Is it possible the EEC is bad?
Still....no one can tell me where , for sure, that stupid relay is?

[pro-five-oh]

The relay you mentioned in the trunk IS the fuel pump relay. http://www.lincolnsonline.com/ubb/smile.gif Here is where it is on my CFI Continental: it is mounted on the passenger side trunk hinge support facing the outside of the car. You cannot see it, its is WAAAAAY up there close to the rear window. Any of the relays listed at the parts shop should fit your Mark.

But if the fuel pump still "whirrs" when you turn the ignition on, I do not think the relay is the problem. Relays work like an on/off switch; the car wouldn't run without a good relay.

Besides any obvious leaks, I think you have a pressure problem. My Continental is having a similar problem, so here's what I plan on doing with it. This just might help you.

Get a fuel pressure gauge and attach it to the schrader valve fitting on the CFI fuel line. On the Continental, the valve is on the driver's side front of the CFI unit and it covered by a plastic cap.

When the gauge is on, start the car without priming it. If you get less than a 30psi reading on the gauge, then the CFI is not getting enough fuel pressure to operate properly. This can mean anything from a bad fuel pump to simply a clogged fuel filter.

[This message has been edited by pro-five-oh (edited January 31, 2001).]

[JazzGuy]

Ok Fellas.....
More symptoms of a problem no one seems to be able to diagnose;
Fuel consumption is frightening, and also, I just happened to check my computer average miles/miles per gallon, and it came up reading 187.2 amg. Something iw very wrong here, and I have no clue where to look.
I checked the pressure, it is running about 38, with the car running. I have already changed out the fuel pump, and fuel filter. I haven't changed the pump in the gas tank. Something tells me this is an eletronics problem, simply because of the computer readout being so absurd.
I called a Lincoln dealership today, and he asked me if the computer had been reset.Does anyone know anything about this?
I am really getting desperate now, I am almost at the point of getting rid of the car.

[stinkin' Lincoln]

alright... I just realized you're CFI... sounds to me like the primary pump is shot... the in-tank is pretty much a primer pump for the secondary...

I'd replace the in-tank pump.

when you said you'd replaced the pump, I assumed you only had a single in-tank pump.

it might be some sort of pressure regulated system where the car won't run w/o the primary pump because the car could dangerously lean out w/o it?

Forrest

[JazzGuy]

Would the in-tank pump be responsible for the computer giving me a bad readout?
If not, what would.

[pro-five-oh]

YES....but the in-tank pump works with the fuel sending unit (also in-tank) to give fuel economy and MPG. Does the fuel gauge accurately read what's in the tank? If not, a damaged fuel sending unit could tell the computer that you have plenty of gas, and getting 100+MPG.

Do you have an owner's manual for the car? The Tripminder computer has a self-diagnostic feature that can measure fuel flow from the sensors...if the computer reads some outrageous numbers (listed in the owner's manual) it will TELL YOU what is damaged.

When I get home I'll pull out my Mark VII/Continental manuals...

[Steino]

At least my computer works! But I'm hearing a high pitched "whine" from the back of the car. It's louder on the passenger side. I'm assuming it's the fuel pump. If so it it worth changing to a after market set up?

[Lscman]

Not sure what you mean by an "aftermarket" setup. No need to buy OEM, if that's what you mean. Aftermarket replacement pumps are just fine and available thru any parts store. I would not alter the fuel system's design by trying to install a pump not designed for the car, unless you know exactly how the fuel pressure regulator, flow and pressure, return line and vapor canister/recovery system works. There is no need to re-engineer the system, just because something is broke.

[JazzGuy]

I believe the gas gauge is accurate, not only that, but I still get an "accurate" reading on my "miles to empty".
Yesterday I ran the car until my gas gauge flashed on "E". I then put 5 gallons of gas in it. drove it about 20 miles, and now the gauge reads 4 gal. So I believe the sending unit may be working properly?
I don't have the owners manual, but I wish I did. I would also like to find a Chiltons for it as well, but it seems that book is now out of print.

New Day:
This morning I went out to do what is becoming a ritual with my car to get it started. Instead of pouring gas, however, I turned the key on, heard the pump, and bled the schraeder valve on the injectors, so that gas filled the throttle body. I made an astonishing discovery. Even though the pump had to reach it's limit pressure wise, it continued to run. Not only that, but I could hear what sounded like an air leak coming from inside the throttle body. It got me to thinking....what shuts the pump off when it reaches it's desired pressure? Is the pump supposed to run constantly? I checked the pump in the Gas tank, and it seems to be working well.
I believe now I do have some sort of leak, but it's not in the lines....It's in the CFI itself. Plus the fuel pump running constantly loads the throttle body up, and thus, my poor gas mileage and the symptom of it running extremely rich. Any help on solutions here will be greatly appreciated. You guys have helped so far, helping me track down the problem, please continue!
Thanks
Jazz



[This message has been edited by JazzGuy (edited February 02, 2001).]

[pro-five-oh]

You are on the right track with the CFI unit. The sending unit seems fine, that's not the problem.

I bought a 1980-88? chilton's engine manual for $7 at Half Price Books and it discusses the CFI setup in detail. Let me look over it for "leak" conditions. If you were in Houston I'd let you try out my CFI unit and see if it helped. http://www.lincolnsonline.com/ubb/wink.gif

Good job, Forrest! Your original post was right!


------------------
pro-five-oh

88 Cougar XR-7 5.0 HO
83 Continental 5.0 LO

My Mark VII tribute Page (http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/street/3545/mark.html)

[This message has been edited by pro-five-oh (edited February 02, 2001).]

[JazzGuy]

One more post here;
Since I have semi-located my problem, does anyone here know where the leak may be? Like I said earlier, I hear the "hiss" coming from the inside of the throttle body. It was suggested to me that one of the injectors may be "stuck" open, but I wouldn't think that would be the case, with me having to still prime it. It was also suggested that the EEM is bad, not shutting the pump off. yet another suggestion was the fuel regulator. So many suggestions! I'm no stranger to turning a wrench, I worked as a mechanic for almost 10 years, however, this fuel injection system has me totally lost. I did manage to locate and buy a Chiltons, 80-87, (thanks for the tip, Half-Priced books did have it, 9.95), but after reading it, I was dismayed to find nothing on fuel injection, except for a short paragraph saying fuel injection was too "comphrensive" for this manual, please refer to Chiltons manual on fuel injection and feedback carbs. Buying it though gave me the pleasure of taking the sorry Haynes manual and tossing it in the incinerator!
Pro, if you do have something on CFI, I would appreciate what you can give me if it will help me resolve this maddening problem. If you have a scanner, scan it and email it to me, otherwise, I may have to head out to the library and see what I can find there. By the way....houston isn't all THAT far from SA!
Thanks and thanks again
Jazz

[This message has been edited by JazzGuy (edited February 03, 2001).]

[Lscman]

Good luck Jazz. There seems to be several CFI experts here. W.r.t. CFI, I'm dumbfounded.

[pro-five-oh]

Jazz, from what I know the fuel pump is supposed to run all the time, and the fuel pressure regulator just keeps the fuel pump in check.

I pulled out my Chilton's manual for my Cougar. It has a decent CFI manual but it is too vague to help me diagnose the problem. According to Mr. Chilton, you can check the pressure to each fuel injector and see if one is leaking.

If you can obtain a Chilton's manual for ANY CFI Ford (Crown Vic, Thunderbird, Cougar, Mark, LTD, Marquis, etc) it will help you out. This system is actually pretty simple, everything is all in one place. You really need a manual to find everything, though.

Since you have narrowed down the problem--and you are getting terrible fuel economy--you might want to go to a junkyard and see how much another CFI unit would cost. ($20?) Any 1984-85 Ford with the 5.0 EFI will work. Older CFI cars have EEC-III, which sensor's operate on 9 volts. 84-85 cars work with 4 volts. Hope this helps!

[JazzGuy]

Thanks Pro, I will look tomorrow for the book. I tried something new today, while the car was running, I disconnected one injector....the car seemes to idle out smoother, but still blew black smoke when accelerated. so then I plugged it in, and unplugged the other, with the same results. does that help anyone with what might be going on here? I have dedicated my entire Sunday to resolving this problem, I really want to get this thing fixed before Monday morning. I hate having to drive it in this condition. I have also resolved that if I can't figure it out and fix it by tommorrow, I am just going to have to break down and take it to the dealership...what a drag.
Anyway, you guys have been great and most helpful. I am glad I came upon this site, and had no idea that the Mark had so many enthusies.
Looking for more info as usual;
Jazz

[LSC Street Racer]

Replace the injectors, they are bad, simple as that. The fact that your getting 20 MPG is a real good sign that they are finished, considering the other probs involved. The injectors on my 85 LSC HO CFI unit were bad at one time, I got about 22 MPG. Now with the new ones I get around 28 MPG. You will need the gasket set for the CFI since you have to diassemble it to replace them. The gasket set is also a dealer item.

[This message has been edited by LSC Street Racer (edited February 03, 2001).]

[pro-five-oh]

Originally posted by JazzGuy:
I tried something new today, while the car was running, I disconnected one injector....the car seemes to idle out smoother, but still blew black smoke when accelerated. so then I plugged it in, and unplugged the other, with the same results

Okay, it sounds like the fuel injectors might be leaking and/or have too much resistance in them. The black smoke might be from fouled plugs due to the injector problems. I'd still get a CFI manual that shows you how to TEST the injectors for resistance...and do a tune-up after you replace the injectors.

Make sure the new injectors come with new "O" rings. Hopefully new injectors are not too expensive at a parts store. If so, find a low-mileage CFI car in a junkyard, the odds are the injectors are in fine shape.

I am saying this because I used some 8 year old Mustang injectors when I converted to High Output in my Cougar and they work great. These suckers were also forced to spray enough fuel for a 300hp motor for most of their life before they met me!