LS vs. BMW 5 Series...

[Lscman]

Let's ignore the super expensive M5 right now. Does the V6 or V8 LS have a chance against the standard 5 series cars in a performance comparison? I haven't seen any decent objective comparisons against similar cars.

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Rick, Road Track Terror in my '88 Mark VII LSC. See ya at Northeast Events! Pgh, PA

[351CJ]

In a straight line a LS8 will beat a 528i. On a skidpad LS Sport Pkg. will also beat a 528i. In braking and on a road course the 528i will probably win. Look at May 2000 C&D.

[Lscman]

I'm sure stupidity will make up for brakes and handling on a road course. I'd better get one.

[351CJ]

The brakes on the LS are fine, big vented rotors front and rear! I think the braking distance problem is due to the Firestone tires. Take the plunge, it's only money. Get a set of Pirelli P-Zeros for the track and you'll have a good chance against the Dunlop shod 528i. The V8 engine is strong but it is hampered by less than optimum transmission gear ratios. It's a long story (it's been discussed on Edmunds) but a case of marketing not the engineers picking the gear ratios.

[Avu3]

I know that no one asked, but the Jaguar XJ-R is quite a nice package. With the same motor as the LS, but also a super charger...

Probably also want to consider the AMG prepped Mercedes E55....

[351CJ]

Avu3: Your car budget must be a lot bigger than mine. A reasonably equipped LS V8 Sport can be driven off the dealer's lot for $37K (no taxes) probably a good $20K less than your two suggestions.

[Avu3]

Yeah, Ok, so I'm on the expensive side... Just pointing out competitors. My boss just bought an XJ-R for $49K, one year old, with 7K miles, and he had three in the same price/mileage range to choose from.

I would likely buy the LS too; I'm holding out for a V8 5 speed. I'll be first in line if it shows up!

[Lscman]

LS 11.8" front rotors are hardly fine on a road race track, although they are a step up for american sedans. Many BMW's are delivered with 13", which are not even adequate for some. Any car that weighs over 2800lb with <13" front brakes is not optimized for severe duty braking. I watch BMW M3's run with some Vettes at the track after a couple laps because the Vettes cook their brakes and can't drive aggressively. The Bimmer's eat them up in the braking zone & corner entry, totally negating a 100+HP advantage.

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Rick, Road Track Terror in my '88 Mark VII LSC. See ya at Northeast Events! Pgh, PA

[This message has been edited by Lscman (edited April 10, 2000).]

[wkam]

Kenny Brown in the Super Fords magazine mentioned that he has upgraded the stock LS front brakes with the Cobra's 13" front brakes.

[351CJ]

lscman: During our weekend blizzard I was looking at some old car rags and found the Autoweek MK-VIII road test. I don't want to quote their LS acceleration #'s because they seems really screwed up, the slowest reported anywhere by a heafty margin. But here are some handling and braking #'s.

Test LS8 MK-VIII
200' skidpad .81g .77g

490' slalom 40.5 MPH 40.8 MPH

30-0 braking 34' 32'
60-0 braking 135' 124'
80-0 braking 246' 222'

Of course tires and the driver have a big effect on those #'s

[351CJ]

Avu3: There is not going to be a LS V8 5 speed manual (the auto's are 5 speed). If you are lucky the LS V8 6 speed manual that has reportedly been prototyped and tested will see production. Production of it seems possible even though only 2% of LS's sold are V6 manuals because Ford is planning to have a 6 spd. manual in the new T-Bird. SO the parts will be engineered and it won't cost that much to put it in the LS. The other good news is that a V8 6 speed LS will reportedly have a "more radical" sport package. I've seen some press reports the 6 spd. will be out in 2001, but the latest issue of AutoWeek said not until 2002.

[351CJ]

Lscman: a few more thoughts on the LS brakes.
First, what percentage of LS's sold (or other American sedans for that matter) wind up on the race track? I'd guess it's tenths of a percent, so you can't fault Lincoln for not putting race ready brakes on the LS. Sure they could put upgraded brakes, upgraded tires, upgraded leather, upgraded....... but then the LS would cost as much as a 528i, in which case most customers would just go buy the 528i.

Both C&D & R&T listed LS brake fade as light in their tests while most American cars get a moderate or heavy rating. The LS brakes may hold up better than most under hard use.

I'm at a loss to explain the long LS stopping distances, given the weight and brake hardware (4 wheel vented and 4 piston calipers) I would expect the stopping distance to be significanly shorter. Is it the tires? C&D's tests show the heavier Firstone shod V8 stopped shorter than the Continental shod lighter V6. Or is the ABS overactive? Food for thought.

[Avu3]

I'm a Tbird nut, and I have been watching the gyrations on the new one closely. I'd heard they scrapped the manual completely, becuase they were looking at low production numbers anyway, 20-40K units, so they didn't want to offer the option.

The news that they may go manual is inspiring. Thanks for the udpate.

[351CJ]

Avu3: Where and when did you get your info. from (no manual T-Bird?). Last time I was on the Ford Heritage website there was a T-Bird questioneer that asked if the viewer would be interested in a 6 spd manual with unique tunings like exhaust and suspension.

I think the Wards Automotive article on the 6 speed LS V8 also made a reference to that combo in the T-Bird (Late Feb publication).

[Lscman]

351CJ:
I can't fault your logic or Lincoln's. Realize though that performance "potential" and track test numbers (like you've been quoting) drives the sales of sporty cars. Bimmers sell very well to men and women that never even press the accelerator to the floor. They read that it's the ultimate driving machine based upon magazine tests and purchase it on that premise. In some cases, M owners could have 10" rotors or two less cylinders and never notice it. Still the big brakes are available from BMW, if a customer wants or needs them. Ford bean counters have fought hard to resist the installation of substantial brakes and even a fifth wheelstud on some of their sporty cars. Many of us remember the days when Rabbit's, Granada's and Monarch's were available with rear disc brakes while the V8 Mustang was saddled with drums until 15 years later. Worse, a Mustang or Pinto manual 4 speed or Fairmont manual 3 speed was the best available in the 70's when 5 speeds were standard equipment in many Japanese econoboxes. I suspect it'll take a 7 speed in the Camaro to obligate Ford to roll out 6 speed Mustangs. They're historically satisfied to be one step behind. The LS's "adequate" brakes that are finally comparable to early '80 BMW's are another example.

[351CJ]

I hear you lscman, if you read the LS V8 6 spd. article in Wards Perry-Jones is fighting the bean counters to get it out for the halo effect. He wants the Sport Package to be more agressive.

You're just making me wonder, why are you bothering with Ford's lscman?