Powerslot rotors?

[invisik]

Hey all,

Anyone use them before? Maybe more of a Mark VIII question, but they are available for the TC.

http://www.powerslot.com

-m

[pro-five-oh]

Invisik, those powerslots can also be in 12.4" variety and are part of a brake upgrade you can do to the TC.

I do not know how much better those slotted rotors will be on a stock braking system. They would help (and wouldn't get warped as quickly) if you use them with carbon-metallic pads.

Check out this article I lifted from http://crownvic.homepage.com/cvmuscle.html Maybe this will help. You can email the guy that did this to his Crown Victoria.

THE ULTIMATE (medium-buck) BRAKE CONVERSION: Are you getting freakin' SICK_AND_TIRED of your stock '92 thru '97 wimpy 10.8" rotors warping every 15,000 miles after stopping your 4,000 car umpteen times ?? How about a 12.4" rotor & dual piston caliper swap right from factory parts ? Here is the deal (in "Nascar" Mike's words, he has a '96):
"I am glad to say that everything swapped over perfectly except for the brake lines. The 99 CV lines are about 3 inches longer, so I had to make new braided stainless steel brakelines. Here is a list of the parts you will need if you do the swap on you 93-97 Crown Vic/Grand Marquis.

F8VZ-2B120-AA Dual Piston Caliper $77.17 each
F8VZ-2C396-BA Caliper bracket $40.97 each
N801052-S100 Banjo bolt $3.32
Raybestos 66744 12.4" Rotor $47.20 (from CarParts.com with 33% off coupon)
Braided stainless steel lines - 16" long with flared adapters - $32
It's also not a bad idea to replace the hubs at the same time. more info: "Yes, you must replace the hubs from your car with the 98 or newer hubs. The newer hubs stick out about 1/4 inch. You will also notice that the ABS exciter ring is a better quality than the cheap pot ash crap that is on the 92-97's now. You will also need new rubber brake hoses as the ones on the 93-97 will be too short. You can either use 98 and newer hoses or go to a speed shop and have them make you stainless steel braided hoses like I did. If memory serves me right, the driver side length must be 16 inches long and the passenger side must be 17 inches long. Let's review: In order to upgrade your 93-97 brakes to the 98 and higher dual piston caliper, 12.4 inch rotors here is what you will need:


16 inch rims to clear the calipers
2 dual piston calipers
2 caliper brackets
2 12.4 inch rotors
2 98+ rubber brake hoses
2 98+ hubs Performance Friction Carbon Metallic brake pads
1 bottle brake fluid

pro-five-oh http://www.geocities.com/jeeves77/cougarview.jpg
88 Cougar XR-7 5.0 HO
15.0@93mph, 3740lbs
83 Continental 5.0 LO
My Mark VII Page (http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/street/3545/mark.html)

[This message has been edited by pro-five-oh (edited May 05, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by pro-five-oh (edited May 05, 2001).]

[BLUECOLLAR]

In my experiences, anything is better than the stock Ford setup. I for one have spent hours machining,indexing,cleaning and making the braking system as "perfect" and functional as possible and to find out later, that I the parts I put on was no better than what came off. If you can afford the upgrade.....do it.

[Lscman]

American cars ALL have tiny rotors compared to their girth. After participating in over 150 Road Racing Events, I can assure you drilled, dimpled or grooved fancy stock-sized rotors are strictly for looks. It does not matter what brand, we've tried them all. In fact, they will crack and fail quicker than standard aftermarket or OEM replacements. That goes for rotors on ANY "heavy" 2800+lb production vehicle from my Corvette (13") to an early HO Fox Mustang (10"). If you want better braking, go with better DOT 4 fluid flushed several times a year, better pads like Performance Friction Carbon Metallic & air cooling ducts. If you can afford it, install BIGGER rotors for more swept area and better heat dissipation. When you get small micro cracks in the rotor surface from excessive heat, throw them in the garbage and buy new ones. Refacing cracked, heat damaged rotors simply disguises the rotor surface. The cracks still exist and will continue to deepen. In general, you will see no difference in rotor longevity between an KONI/ITT/AIMCO, RAYBESTOS, Wagner BENDIX or FORD rotor. They all have very similar metallurgy and longevity. Some of the generic lines seem to be inferior.

[invisik]

Hmm, so what's up with slotted and drilled and all that? Don't cars like Porsche have them from the factory? I'd think a company like that would kinda know, but they do a lot to keep up their image, so they could just be for show. Oh well, bigger discs are more of the point.

In any event, I am interested in more braking power for my TC. I do find it very weak in that area. I'm definately going to add it to my list of mods.

[BLUECOLLAR]

I know personally of 2 people that have had good luck with buying "performance rotors" from a "reputable" companies. Maybe it was coincedence, maybe not. Being an old Ford tech, I always had to keep using the Ford stuff(warranty). Also, after installing what seems like thousands of rotors in my time, I only had a small percentage of rotors that had cracks of any kind on them(and that was on the late 80's and early 90's models). I did have "tons" of them with variation of thickness problems(which meant machining was a waist of time), but for the most part they were o.k as far as structure goes. Its my opinion that the Ford design is inadeqate, and any "reputable" companies that put racing experience into there design of a rotor, makes me feel good that at least....someone's trying. Ford is not!

[This message has been edited by BLUECOLLAR (edited May 06, 2001).]

[invisik]

So, BlueCollar, do you have any recommendations for rotors?

[BLUECOLLAR]

Seems like those people used rotors from "baer" racing products...or something like that. I'm sure the spelling isn't right, but it sounds like "bear". See if you can find them on the net, if you can't, let me know.

[Lscman]

I suppose I should clarify my point. I'm speaking from a severe duty perspective..not the average driver. Race rotors are superior, as you say. However, Powerslot rotors or any other rotor that fit the conventional street brake hardware (caliper etc) are a joke, not race rotors. They are simply machined street quality rotors, sometimes with pretty plating. They are a perfect match with neon undercarriage lighting. True race or sports car setups have much thicker rotors that are specially designed to withstand material being removed from the swept area via holes, slots or dimpling. In many cases, these rotors have special molds that provide additional beef or structure in the spots that are to be drilled. Such rotors are sold by Baer, Howe, Brembo, Wildwood, Girling and countless other's. Serious sports cars that have OEM drilled rotors (Porsches, Ferrari's etc) are made by companies like Brembo. These are specially designed and manufactured rotors that are often over 1.5" thick. Baer sells real race brakes and they also sell specially designed performance rotors to fit the stock brake setup. From personal experience, I would advise you to steer away from their OEM fitment performance rotors. I race with a gentleman who just fried a pair of drilled 13" $420 Baer 2-piece rotors with pretty blue centers designed to fit his factory PBR Corvette ZR-1 setup. These are the ultimate wannabe race rotors. They are identical to the rotors used on the Mustang Cobra. They were thumping and severely cracked after day 2. He is furious because his normal $70 aftermarket AIMCO and Bendix replacements normally last a whole season. I have the same PBR brake setup on my LT1 Vette and I witnessed the results. The fact that he can replace the outer swept section for $105 each is no bonus. I fully agree that many street cars will never get rotor cracks. The average driver does not drive so aggressively. That said, I will say my Aerostar 4WD minivan gets new rotors yearly and I can burn the brakes on a Mark VII to the ground in under 5 miles of merciless rallying on a back road. If you are trying to keep up with a decent ponycar driver, you can expect it. I have gone through approximately 40 rotors on my Mark VII. Very careful braking management/conservation is necessary to avoid cracking when driving in a spirited fashion on windy Pennsylvania roads and on the track it is even more difficult. I used to replace my silly 10" rotors every 3 months on my '86 Mustang GT and that was on the street! The conversion to '86 Mustang SVO hardware only allowed me to drive harder. The answer is larger brakes, not machined reliefs.

------------------
Rick, Road Track Terror in my '88 Mark VII LSC. See ya at Northeast Events! Pgh, PA

[pro-five-oh]

After listening to everyone's experience and my luck with adding 11" (from 10") front rotors and bigger calipers on my 3600lb Cougar, you HAVE to go to larger discs.

I am pretty sure your TC already has 16" wheels, so going to the 12.4" rotors and 2-piston calipers is a fantastic idea. It'll probably save you $$$ with less frequent brake jobs.

Considering that about 80% of braking is done by the front brakes, this is a worthwile upgrade.

[BLUECOLLAR]

INVISIK, I would imagine this could go on as long as the Ford VS. Chevy debate.

My next question is, "Do you have a warping rotor problem, or are you just wanting something "beefier"?
If you have a reoccuring warping problem, It may be worth the extra money to "Upgrade". If not, you'd probably be better off sticking with the Ford units.

[Lscman]

I agree wholeheartedly. Larger rotors will not stop a car quicker or safer unless excessive heat from repeated stops causes fade from boiling fluid or rotor degradation. Performance Friction Carbon Metallic Pads will provide good brake function beyond the point of rotors glowing red hot. Fresh, top quality DOT 4 fluid will prevent boil fade in ALL cases..based upon my track experience.

[invisik]

So I guess I'm more confused. I'm looking to ensure I can stop when I need to. I plan on at least changing pads before they get too worn, but thought a larger disc/pad setup would provide better stopping power. I am also unsure how well a single-piston caliper is as compared to a dual-piston.

I had a problem (albeit on a previous car) with my 93 TC that sometimes I'd have the brake pedal to the floor but the car wouldn't stop fast enough. My dealer repeatedly said nothing was wrong as they could not reproduce the problem. I drive a lot during the day (not a taxi, but between 3-5 client's offices per day) and find it vital that I can be safe on the road (part of the reason I drive TC's, large enough to survive almost any accident). They way some people drive these days, I don't think I'm too out of line with this request.

Should I stay with my stock rotor/caliper setup and just use the metallic-carbon pads or should I upgrade to the 12.4" and use metallic-carbon pads?

Pro-Five-Oh states I may do brake jobs less frequently with the larger setup. That would be a benefit to anyone. But if I can just change pads more often and get good braking out of the stock setup, I'd probably be ok.

Thanks for all your comments.

PS: I can't see my caliper through my wheel, so I really don't care on looks...

[pro-five-oh]

All of this boils down to driving habits...

For me, rapid stopping from 50-65mph is part of my daily commute. One time I was driving 60mph (the speed limit) on a highway, but had to stop at a light every 1/2 mile. After 4 of those stops in 100+ degree weather, my 10" rotors couldn't do it. The fade was so bad I'd push my foot to the floor just to get it to stop! I have YET to experience warped rotors/brake fade with (Mustang) 11' front rotors, 73mm (Mark VII) calipers, and Performance Friction pads. In my experience, replacing stock Ford brakes with bigger stuff is almost a necessary evil.

If you encounter brake fade occasionally, try some performance friction pads at your next brake job. They may be the PERFECT fix, and they only cost about $25.

If it is worse than that, go for the 1998-up brakes. It is all about driving habits and the stresses on your braking system.

Try the PF pads first, if they leave you wanting more, do the swap.

------------------
pro-five-oh
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/street/3545/cougarview.jpg
88 Cougar XR-7 5.0 HO
15.0@93mph, 3740lbs
83 Continental 5.0 LO
My Mark VII Page (http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/street/3545/mark.html)

[invisik]

Ok, excuse my knowedge level, but what is brake fade? If it's when you push the pedal to the floor and you're not stopping fast enough, then I DEFINATELY want to avoid that as much as possible....

Thanks for the education!

-m

[invisik]

Ok, found some info on brake fade. Will larger brakes compensate for this? It doesn't really sound like anything would, as if you pad is heated too hot, it's still going to slip. Do they run cooler or where's the benefit here?

-m

[pro-five-oh]

I do not know if PF pads resist brake fade better than stock, but they do stop the car faster. They will occasionally squeak, but I only hear it if my windows are down.

The PF's (sold at Autozone) have more friction then conventional organic pads...but they DO build up more heat. With my PF padds, I once had to take a front tire off once after a long drive and the lug nuts were so damn hot I had to take them off with gloves!

Still, I think you should try them. If it resolves your stopping problem, you are set. http://www.lincolnsonline.com/ubb/smile.gif

[BLUECOLLAR]

invisik, bigger rotors mean a larger area for the pads to ride on. EXAMPLE:Say your rotor was the size of a c.d. rom(smaller pads are matched with smaller rotors also). Imagine putting a mark on the rotor(c.d. rom) at 12 o'clock. Theres not much area(metal) on one revolution. If you had a bigger rotor, it would have a better chance to cool before a full revolution.

Different pads, mean different compounds(ingredients). Different pads have different "fading" temperatures. When racing or pulling a trailer down a mountain, is when you could really see a difference in brake fade.

[Mark42]

My 98 T/C has the 12.4 rotors. I have yet to experience any brake fade, and I have romped this 4000 lb monster through the back country roads on more than one occasion.

I would go with the factory parts upgrade if they just bolt on. Longer brake life, and reduced over heating are great benefits.

[XH2Oskier]

I have read on other boards that drilled rotors are to be avoided, but forged rotors with holes are OK. Also, what are the pros and cons of kevlar pads versus carbon-metallic. Also, don't wheels need to be cleaned more often with carbon metallic pads?

[pro-five-oh]

I don't know anything about the Kevlar pads, but in my experience the carbon-met pads are no worse than organic pads as far as brake dust.

[Lscman]

Unfortunately, every pad has drawbacks. Performance Friction Carbon Metallic's Street and Z's dust like crazy but provide ideal track/street combo performance. No pad dusts worse, although the PFC black dust does not seem to eat the surface off aluminum wheels like some cheaper semi-metallic's. Some of the new ceramic pads provide virtually zero dust with only average life and fade resistance. In general, you must trade squeaking and dust for high temperature severe duty performance. Pick your poison. The ideal solution is to install larger brakes so they are not worked as hard. That allows you to run milder pads and still get good performance.

[pro-five-oh]

You know invisik, with all these opinions I think we all need to drive your TC and maybe jam on the brakes a few times to get an accurate diagnosis. Got a few spare beds up there in Minneapolis???

Oh yes, I'm JUST kidding http://www.lincolnsonline.com/ubb/smile.gif

Either way, I think you got some pretty good info, and can probably be credited for having the longest post on the Conti/TC boards!