TC: Upgrade a 90-97 model with 98-up brakes?

[Charles A.]

Hi guys!

I've been away for a few months while I was in the process of relocating, so this is the first post since last fall. I have a 1995 TownCar Signature series with 100K miles which will have to be driven to its new home, but before I can do that it needs a major brake overhaul. I have decided to upgrade the brakes to the more powerful 1998-up configuration. Where I lived before it was pretty flat, but here there are big hills and slippery roads, so I need all the stopping power I can get!

I did some research on this, but the only info I could find was for upgrading the brakes on a Crown Vic. If I understand this correctly, I will be replacing the front calipers, front and rear hubs/rotors, and the front brake hoses. My understanding is that the 90-97 TC brakes use 10.4-inch rotors up front and single-piston calipers. The 98 and up models have 12-inch rotors and dual-piston calipers instead. But the change in the rotors means 16-inch rims are required for proper clearance, which is why all the 98 and newer models have larger rims.

My reasoning is this: I have to pay for a complete overhaul no matter what, as my calipers and rotors are shot. So it will be a complete brake job. While I am paying for this, in theory the only additional cost should be the difference in parts cost between standard 95 parts and the 98 parts, plus the new brake hoses and maybe a master cylinder. And the cost of new rims of course -- but that's another story. ;)

Now, before I go shelling out for all this, I was wondering if anyone out there has done this upgrade already and is there anything I need to know or am forgetting here? For example, should I replace the master cylinder? If the larger rotors are dual-piston, they might need more fluid, hence a larger master cylinder. Does this sound logical? What about the booster? Are there any other parts that would need to be replaced? How about the rear calipers? Are they the same in 1998 as the older ones, or did these change as well?

Lots of questions I know, but I'm sure a few folks out there might be interested in this. I will be glad to post all the details when it's done for anyone else who might want to do it. In the meantime any help would be greatly appreciated. I am going to have to do this next week so wish me luck!

Oh, and BTW I will post another thread on the wheel upgrade.

Thanks in advance for your help! smile.gif

Charles

[pro-five-oh]

Charles: kudos to you because you have pretty much got all the information I know. My only issue is that someone needs to cross reference the part numbers for the 1998-up master cylinder to the one in your car.

I would email one of the Crown Vic guys who have done this personally to get some first hand knowledge. But it all seems straightforward.

If it works for the Vics it'll work with a TC. They all have ABS, so there is no wiring or hardware problems there. So I would strongly recommend it, but like all modifications, it never works out as smoothly as you wanted. But it WILL work out!

I would buy all the parts first, including the wheels and tires. The moderator of this board (Richard) has some 16" tires that he can sell you too!

Next install the hubs/rotors/calipers/front lines first. You are gonna notice a gigantic difference in stopping power at highway speeds. It's just physics!

If you didn't install a different master cylinder and the pedal feels a little mushy after the install, then get a new one for a new TC.

I installed larger brakes on my Cougar, but the addition of larger front calipers made my pedal a little mushy. That's when the extra flow of a larger bore master cylinder is needed. But even with the small master cylinder, the braking is 300% better than it was before. I expect no less from your conversion!

Good luck!

[Charles A.]

Thanks for the input!

I also posted this over at CrownVic.org and got a reply from a fellow who had actually done it. Here's the linnk:
http://www.crownvic.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000182#000011


Like I said I'll do a complete write-up on this and post in the near future to let everyone know how it went and what was involved, cost, etc.

Thanks again for your help! smile.gif

PS Got my wheels, I am going to do another thread on that.

[pro-five-oh]

quote:Originally posted by Charles A.:
[QB]I'll do a complete write-up on this and post in the near future to let everyone know how it went and what was involved, cost, etc.
[QB]

Excellent! Email the webmaster with your write up and we'll have it in the TECH section!

[Lscman]

I did not hear you mention the spindles and caliper mounting brackets. Sometimes spindles are redesigned to accept larger brake rotors, although Ford has recently moved toward a more modular hub setup that allows various brakes to be adapted. The caliper mounting brackets are fairly costly and almost always different for each brake setup.

[Charles A.]

That's a good point, but fortunately it looks like this is a relatively simple swap. I read posts by at least two people who did this. They did not replace their spindles but did replace their hubs. Of course these were Crown Vics but both cars share the same chassis hardware for the most part.

I asked the dealer how long the hubs lasted. He said it varies, but that they are sealed so you can't repack them. With 100K miles, I figured I might as well replace them now and not worry about it. So I still don't know if you absolutely must replace the hubs in this swap, but I am going to just to be safe. . .

You are right about the caliper mounting brackets (one person referred to these as "caliper slides"). These are among the parts that need to be replaced.

I am negotiating with the dealer to keep the costs down. My car is on the other side of the country so I am having a good shop (which just happens to be a Lincoln dealership) do the work. They are expensive but always do it right the first time. Many shops won't touch a job like this, much less a dealership, so I am pleased they will work with me.

I asked them to quote me Raybestos rotors instead of Ford OEM. Not only are they half the price, but my service rep agreed with me that the Ford rotors are basically crap. I still haven't decided which pads to use. I do not drive this thing like a race car so all I'm looking for smooth, safe stops with minimal warping of the rotors over time.

I decided to leave the rear brakes stock and have them overhauled as is. The cost to change over the parts in the back was quoted as $950 vs $250 to overhaul. I couldn't figure any reason to do this. From what I've been able to figure out, the parts back there are not really any larger or better in '98 than they were in '95. He did tell me, however, that the brakes in back were larger on cars with the handling package.

If that proves to be the case, I will upgrade my rear brakes later when my axle is overhauled and/or replaced. I plan to install 3.27 or 3.55 gears and limited-slip in the near future because where I live now there are a lot of hills and my other car (a '98 Grand Marquis with handling package and 3.27:1 axle ) is geared almost perfectly for driving here. The 2.7:1 TownCar would fly down hill like greased lightning and require heavy use of brakes. But that's another project!

Anyway, I'll post the entire breakdown with part #s etc. once all this is done -- provided it works!

Thanks again for your input. smile.gif

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Charles A. ]

[Lscman]

The caliper brackets typically encompass the rotor and are sized accordingly. Sliding parts/pins typically attach the caliper and usually the pads to the stationary brackets that bolt to each spindle. I would not replace the expensive hubs unless they have excessive play. If the later cars have different rear brakes, upgrading the front brakes and ignoring the rears is a risky proposition. Caliper bores and bore count affect front to rear bias and feel. Factory proportioning valves are calibrated for the stock setup. You could wind up with a poorly balanced package that prematurely locks the front or rear system that is downright dangerous. Two wheel braking is not the hot setup, even with ABS and larger rotors.

[Charles A.]

You make some very good points! You know, the proportioning valve is one part I didn't even think of! I'll have to find out if it changed in '98 as well.

The trouble with the hubs is that no one who has done this upgrade is certain whether or not the old parts will work. They have all replaced them just in case. I don't know if the part #s are different, will have to check.

According to Ronman over at CrownVic.org, there is no difference in the rear brakes from '92 to present. He may be referring to the Crown Vic Police Interceptor though. It's possible the rears vary depending on which car and which handling package.

Since there are few cross references for this type of thing, it's hard to know. I'll look into it further and see what I can find out.

Thanks!

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Charles A. ]

[Lscman]

Charles,

Cross referencing of parts is fairly easy. You can visit any Ford or LM dealer and obtain the factory part #'s for any part. Conversely, you can call them and get the P/N#'s over the phone. You must use some shrewd tactics sometimes like "let me jot that number down so you don't have to look it up again...I'll be there on wednesday". For hub/bearing assy...they are a common aftermarket part and cross referencing info will be available at any Pep Boys or Auto Zone in your area. Lastly, the site www.carparts.com (http://www.carparts.com) will provide all the cross referencing info you can absorb. Simply type in the two cars you wish to swap parts between and compare #'s. Some simple checks of rear rotor and caliper part#'s should clear most things up, however you'd better look into the proportioning valve issue. Ford ALWAYS tunes the brake setup with a different valve assy and often even a different booster and master cylinder. They used as many as 4 different prop valves in a SINGLE model year in the Mustang line. On the newer TC's, I do not know if it's still a separate valve assy or if they integrate them into the master cylinder like GM does. You might compare master cylinder P/N's if it's the latter.

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Lscman ]

[Charles A.]

OK, Ronman over at CrownVic.org has cleared this up for us! Here are the latest details:

Rear brakes are the same.
Master cylinder is the same.
Proportioning valve is the same.

The only differences are the calipers, caliper slides, rotors, pads, and lines.


Thank the Lord! That just saved me $350!

And thanks to 99NDP71 we now know that:

Nascar Mike has put an end to the idea that the "new" and "old" hubs are close enough to interchange....they are NOT.
The new hubs are about 0.125" thicker at the rotor mounting face, moving the rotor OUT, consiquently, if you attempt to re-use your old hub, the new rotor will rub on the caliper/caliper bracket. Also, the new hubs have larger improved bearings, that in itself makes the hub swap worthwhile..IMO.

[Charles A.]

My car is in the shop as we speak and will get the Big Brake Upgrade tomorrow! The new 16" wheels are mounted with Michelin rubber and ready to go (see OEM wheel thread).

The parts cost quite a bit for this job, but at least I have the comfort of knowing everything is brand new and properly installed by factory techs. You can probably buy used parts and overhaul them cheaper, but I opted for brand new brakes in the front.

I will do a complete write up on this as soon as it's done. My poor service tech had a heck of a time making this happen for me. If anyone else wants to do it, they need to go in armed to the teeth with all the right info as most shops probably won't want to do it.

Will update soon. . .