Sound system question

[pepsi2185]

Do you think that theater staging type of setup where all speakers get equal staging attention and avoiding window reflection or reflective interior material would give you a good setup. Beyond the conventional front staging and rear background effect.

Say in a conventional sedan, you put components setup in the C pillar pointed forward and same as well for the front speakers. Would the front and rear stereo setup be pheasible. And would it be worth the time for experimenting.

Appreciate any feedback.

Big Joe

[RJ Sclafani]

I'm actually installing 2 component sets into my 89 TC sorta like that. I have the fronts installed, woofer in stock location on door, tweeter near top of door. I think I am going to just install the second set of components in the stock location as well in the rear. I'll tell you how it turns out. There might be some timing issues with phasing, but with a good HU, you shouldn't have a problem like that as long as the HU has timing correction.

[SQ_LSC]

Pepsi, unless your a total anal retard like myself about sound reproduction it's not worth it. There's a few people who have successfully done it but it's very difficult to do properly. Rockford fosgate made one unit for automotive use that would give you a matrix'd signal for the rears, but there's only that one unit that I'm aware of. This is the same as using dolby pro-logic2 playback mode which is more prevelent in dvd units.

Any time you play the same thing in the rear as the front, your gonna smear your front stage imaging. Ideally if you have time alignment, you would adjust a delay into the rears as not to distort the primary note too bad.

lemme know if anyone's gonna try for the effect and i'll go into more detail on my experiences. I have spent many hours messing with that type of setup. If it helps one person enjoy there system more, I'll write a novel on the subject. :D

I do enjoy rear speakers. They give you a much larger sound stage and imaginary room but it's nothing that can be associated with "accuracy". Decide for your self if you want an accurate system or an enjoyable system. It's just like tunning systems. Most people think that a system that sounds very warm and laid back is a really good system (vs. the "in your face") sytems but in reallity, warm and laid back are not something I hear when I listem to live entertainment. Those systems usually make everything seem like there's a veil over the presentation and make women's voices sound chesty. They often also have trouble doing symbles right. A true accurate system will sound very warm when needed but will also get down and dirty when needed. There's also systems that are always in your face and never sound laid back which is just as bad and less enjoyable.

Always remember K.I.S.S.
keep it simple stupid. Less is usually more when doing these systems when it comes to driver quantities.

[pepsi2185]

Write on brother. I love talking with knowledgeable people. No such thing as a long post. What about those type of systems that correct sound by using a microphone placed in the driver headrest to make sound adjustment. I think its a pioneer thing.

You go to school for auto sound. MECP certification??? I just missed my first class by a few points.

[SQ_LSC]

that's part of there time alignment system in those units. not all units with alignment use mics though. It's also trickling down into lower cost units. My truck system that I hold titles with does not use time alignment in the electrical domain. I mechanically aligned drivers for dispersion and control though. My mk7 is using a time alignment unit but you'd be surprised how little it's adjusted. That's great for a single seat but if you want both seats to sound good, you need to move the speakers, not make delays.

Personally, I've never installed car stereos for a living, so no, I have no certifications. I have however spent a great deal of time in my life persuing a realistic listening environment in both my home and vehicles. also edjucating myself in the psychoachoustics of audio reproduction through listening and hands on practice for the past 20 years. I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I'm willing to share what I can and my experiences to help you guy's save time and trouble.

It's late now. I'll get back to ya tomorrow on this. Please answer the question I asked above. Is your goal to make an accurate system or a system that makes you feel all "warm and fuzzy inside". There is a difference between wow factor and reality.

[pepsi2185]

I appreciate you working with me on this. I guess what im looking for is the most accurate reproduction of music as is possible with a little more. I listen to jazz so i love to have that saxophone sing out only as it could in a recording studio in a set of headphones. Im not sure what you mean by "warm and fuzzy" though. If i cannot pick out which speaker the music is coming from. Like being in the center of the symphony orchestra. I am surrounded in a nice blanket of boney james or rick braun, and its so accurate i connot feel where dead staging spots are (within reason, pretty much just the driver seat) in my car i guess thats what im goin for. So i guess to answer your question, i cannot enjoy the system unless it is accurate. :D I hope that made sense it like 3 in the mornin here.

[SQ_LSC]

Ok, theater staging. Not possible in-of itself in a car. Theaters use many speakers along the walls to cover the many rows of listeners. They're also playing soundtracks recorded in multichannel, optimised for that speaker setup. We don't have either luxury available to us. If I understand you correctly, you want to point your rear speakers towards the listener and space them accordingly to give you an imaged rear soundstage.

Honestly, I've never heard a 2-channell setup that could use point-sourced speakers decent for rears. The only time I've heard them work half-decent, they were also bi-polar with one half wired out of phase from the other half.

To get a better soundstage than factory locations from the rears requires alot of patience. As much as you would put into your fronts.This is without some kind of DTS sound system which is a totally different animal with alot of the recordings putting you up on stage with the band, vs. out in front of.

When I listen to live music, I generally do not hear stereo sound behind me. Trying to get it in my vehicle has never been the primary goal, either. Realistic ambience is very desirable though and quite obtainable. As I said before, replicating what's playing infront of you behind you will enlarge your stage but it will also smear your front imaging. The key here is by how much you degrade the front to get the ambience.

Here's some advise I recommend. How much you agree with is up to you.
:rolleyes:

1.Throw away the idea of trying to obtain a stereo image in the rear.
2.Concentrate on diffraction and not absorbtion.
3.Get the speakers as far away from the rear as possible and angle them to the back vs. the front.
The more, the rear sound is disspersed, the more realistic the ambience will seem.
the farther away from the rear the speakers are located, the larger the hall you can attempt to re-create.
4.Keep in mind the basics of how humans perceive direction and what frequencies give the most directivity cues.
The object is to remove those cues.
The basics are as follows, for high frequencies, the most important factor in localization is volume. For mids, it's distance. Bass is generally non directional unless it's in close proximity and vibration will play a key roll in localization.
5. time alignment and equalization are last steps and should never be used during your speaker staging evaluations. They are very good tools, but for a killer system, mechanically align all your drivers before you start your fine tunning. You can polish a turd all you want but it's still a turd in the end.
6. turn the volume down on the rears.
7. turn the volume down on the rears. I can't stress this one enough. Rear speakers should not be heard and when your spending so much time getting the best sound out of them you can, you may feel ripped off if you don't hear them. Most people make this mistake. You should not be aware that there are even speakers in the rear of the vehicle. If you are, then there too loud. You should only notice there presence if they were turned of during playback.

Lemme know if anyone would like to discuss any of these points and I'll concentrate on those individual items.

[Capt. Zilog]

I'm interested in how you keep timing straight. Do you actually measure speaker-to-ear distance and determine if you should reverse polarity on the speaker? Or is it more of a fudge factor thing, where you just dork around with the speakers until it sounds good?

[SQ_LSC]

time alignment is done by measuring the speakers difference in distance and both positioning the speakers for equal lenghts and/or using built in electronic processing to delay the signals to the closer speakers to align the delivery. Reversing polarity is usually a fudge factor thing. I'm not aware of any real sience to it unless you know the frequencies your producing are half a wavelenght off from one speaker to the other.

[pepsi2185]

polishing a turd, nice. LOL

So i would be better off putting the speakers in the doors and aiming them toward the back window??? I know what your saying, most bipolar setups have a nice corner to work with and in a car there is none. And a nice expenisive sound processor is needed to create that front timing delay and to provide the ability to pick out those certain frequencies that are smudging the sound.

This is interesting, i understand the concepts. Now where does the problems come in with all four speakers pointed toward the driver besides staging getting smeared in the center. Sorry for 500 questions, i am enjoying the input.

Big joe

[SQ_LSC]

smearing the front IS the problem, besides unrealistic reverberation. If your going to take the time to place and angle the rears, why distort your front imaging more than you have to?

Time alignment is a nice tool but it's not a requirement. Proper installation technics go so much farther. Also, certain frequencies can be altered with an eq, and crossovers. You don't need a fancy processor. I tried to leave those out of this discussion.

[pepsi2185]

where do you usually place the rears??? And is dynomat surround helpful at all??

[SQ_LSC]

I don't install for a living so "usually" is kind of a trick question to me. In my SUV I have back speakers in the factory locations. They are not used during SQ competitions because there's more points to be lost in imaging than in ambience. I do use them out of competiton though. They are an identical component model as my fronts and aimed to the back corners of the truck. both drivers are highly limited on what frequencies of the spectrum there reproducing. I have no electronic time alignment either.

Can you elaborate on surround? do you mean regular matting or some other product?

[DaKat]

This would be a good subject to discuss in one of our infrequent Saturday night chats - now on AOL IM, not mIRC. ;)

[pepsi2185]

Thanks for reminding me dakat, i always forget. Thats tomorrow :D

I mean by surround a layer of that aluminum with window sealer on the back of it that would stick to all of the surrounding areas of the metal where you put your speakers to prevent the metal from resonating at certain frequencies and messing up the frequency response of the speaker driver.

That stuff any good??

[SQ_LSC]

Yes! That would be a damping product.

Any and all materials will start to vibrate and produce there own sound at a certain frequency. The matting adds mass lowering the frequency that that happens at which hopefully pulls it out of the audible range. I have about 400sq ft. in the truck. In the lincoln I'm also using lead core sheeting laminated between foam to try and cut down on floor vibrations which tend to pull your soundstage down.

[pepsi2185]

What are some of your favorite brands SQ?

i notice you like audio control signal processors and sound adjusters.
head unit??
amplifier - you tended to use zapco.
Components - ??

Have you worked with diamond, kicker, boston or soundstream???

[SQ_LSC]

I really don't have any favorites. Almost every company makes decent stuff. They shuffle back and forth at different price points of which one is the best value but all in all, I'd use just about anyone's product. I've played with product from all those companies you listed but again, they all make quite exceptional stuff if your willing to pay for the higher end models.

Those items you listed that I run are selected because of there reliability and durability. The processors are a step above most in not adding any coloration of there own, so they would be high on my must have list. Even audio control's cheap stuff rocks. You can't go wrong with any of there products and they even make digital stuff now with presets. The zapco amplifiers are high current series amps which i'm partial to but you'll be hard pressed to "hear" a difference in amps until stressed. One nice feature of the amps is that you can run 16v on the pre-amp signal drastically lowering the noisefloor of the rca signal. All my zapco amps are going in the mk7 and I'm either going to go with an old 6 channell McIntosh amp I have laying around or get some ARC amps for the truck.

With head units, it's basically what cosmetics you like and what features. The one in the truck is a single din nakamichi MB100. It's a 6 disk, in the dash changer with the pre-amp in the back with the amps. A coaxial digital cable runs to the back keeping the noise floor low. It has 24bit burr browns, and no swimming dolphins. :rolleyes:

In the MK7, I have a Pioneer premier P9 combo DEX/DEQ. I probably won't be doing any external eq's or crossovers cause' this unit is loaded. It even has adjustable crossover slopes between 12 and 36 and 8 channells of time alignment! besides 30 band eq's.

Now for the speakers. That's the biggie. If anything's gonna change your "sound" besides a good or bad install, this is it. There are many speakers that I like such as Diamond Hex's, JL XR's, CDT's, Morrell, Vifa, Dynaudio, hell, the list goes on. I have MB quart Q series in the SUV and those rock. There's a big difference in the tweeters of those sets and the other lines. The new QM series is even better! In the MK7, I'm going with all DLS speakers. 1" silk dome tweeters, 3" DOME midranges, and 8" paper midbasses along with 2 15's for the bottom end. They're a relatively new Swedish company here in the states, but they've been around for some time. I've auditioned there entire line and every price point of speaker rocks for the money.

Other than a speaker that you like the characteristics of, the key to good equipment is knowing your equipment and it's quirks. Reliability issues have become rampant along many brands and everybody has made junk.

One maunafacturer of head units I'd like to single out here for a thumbs up is someone that used to suck in years passed but is making excellent products is JVC. They've really improved and there reliability is a non issue for the most part.

My advise is don't sweat the brands.

AOL IM? *sighs*

[DaKat]

quote:Originally posted by SQ_LSC:

AOL IM? *sighs*

Oh, c'mon now - if I can do it, you can ;)

[pepsi2185]

LOL, chickadeecocoa@aol.com

I know what your thinkin, its my gf aol sn and we just both use it.

Jvc has improved a lot i agree. But they still skimp on the small stuff that can ruin a radio. And they are kinda high on the distortion. But hey with that nice fat 15 amp fuse in the back you get nice tight bass. :D

[Fas-Linc]

Looks like you are wanting a 5.1 surround system in your car. easily done. depends on your budget. you can go with a basic processor, alpine H510( about 399) or go all out with the Alpine F-1 H900 ( $4500 not a typo) then you need speakers good quality speaker is a must but beware. you can spend thousands of $$$ on equipment and have a crappy install it will sound like crap.

for a theater sound. you will need proper speaker placement. for the best sound most people put them in the kick panels. this give the speakers more equal path lengths to your ears. center channel which gives vocals.
Rear speakers don't have much to do in a surround sound system. Just slight background sounds, echos,ect.

the .1 Subs are really open. it gives you the "feel".

lastly when tring to get surround sound in a vehicle, the source will have to be a DVD player. While there are very few music only CDs have the true suround 5.1 encoding. I have yet to see a CD head unit the decodes 5.1. while you can get auto DVD players faily cheap. you may want a good quality one for a system. I can an has been done. and I have heard some increadable sounding theater systems in a vehicle.

Tim

[pepsi2185]

Well it looks like we have two of the best

Fas-Linc, meet SQ_LSC.

Fas-Linc have you done a system like this before???

[SQ_LSC]

Would this be Tim Hunter?

[Fas-Linc]

yeah??????

[SQ_LSC]

Welcome to LOL. Your the only Tim I saw listed for that year's US Finals. I was just curious. I didn't finish the season last year due to my wife being diagnosed with breast cancer but I plan on getting back out soon with a new car. Looks like IASCA might be sharing your finals this year. Maybe we'll meet. Still competing?

[Fas-Linc]

Yeah, I am still playing. I am currently working on the system in my Focus wagon. I accually got a invite to the 03 Finals, but about a month before, the Crown vics motor went out(thanks to the local dealer)
Did you see that USAC and IASCA may have a unified finals in KC.

Pepsi, I have done a couple when I was in the business. I am planing one for the town car, but first need to finish my Focus.
SQ I hope your wife is doing alright.
Tim

[ May 19, 2004: Message edited by: Fas-Linc ]

[pepsi2185]

Yes SQ i am sorry about that. I dont mean to push faith on anyone, but your wife is in my prayers.

Fas-Linc keep us posted on the system in the lincoln. I like getting as many angles on this as possible. Ive been reading my ass off at SQ's wiring diagram site. Good stuff!! The car stereo cookbook just does not cut it anymore. By the way it was very informative and indepth with explanation of just about every detail as far as the first class technician in conventional autosound is concerned.

[SQ_LSC]

Thanks guy, my wife had surgery and radiation and she is free and clear. She's doing fine and life is basically back to normal for us.

Pespsi, did you see this site?My Lincoln (http://www.sounddomain.com/memberpage/280687/4)

[DaKat]

Great news about you wife, SQ!

[Fas-Linc]

Yeah, great news.

For those interested if you haven't already. theCarsound (http://www.carsound.com) forums. I have been there for a couple years. some of the biggest names in the car audio business post there. If you need an answer to a car audio question people there will help.

Tim

[pro-five-oh]

Glad to hear that your wife has made a full reovery, SQ. smile.gif

So we have two audio power players on our humble little forum? Wow!

[pepsi2185]

Thanks SQ, excellent now i have another website of yours i can enjoy, my favorites are fillin up fast here.

Im gonna check that out fas-link, as many good resources as possible.

By the way i was cruisin in my uncles 72 rivvy thinking about how far stereos have come. Remember when four speakers bouncing off the glass was cool????

[pepsi2185]

SQ, i am curious why you switched from the four sets of 5.25" components to the two sets of components and the 8 set of subs in 2002?? The four component sets didnt work out for you???

2001 was in the ranger or the explorer??? and where did you put those components in 2001???

One more question, what if all of this is in a convertible, are the rules completely different.???????????

[SQ_LSC]

I traded in the Ranger for the SUV in 2000'. That was also my rookie year of competition. I've never had 4 sets. One set front and one set rear has always been the compliment and still is today. I've dabled with using the rears in competion on and off but I generally don't use them. I get excellent ambience these days without them. The front subs were just a way to get a fuller front stage with "upfront" bass and I don't think I'll ever go back to not having large format drivers in the front again!

[pepsi2185]

Im sorry for all the questions SQ, but i appreciate your time in answering them.

Where do you usually place the rear components? And would all this stay the same if the top was down in a convertible?

[Fas-Linc]

Pepsi, in a convertable all the veriables go out the window. Verts have a total differant way to look at.

I am with SQ I normaly do not use rear speakers. tried them but never realy gave much of a benifit. The 5.1 surround I am planing for the town car will have rears.

As for mounting components in the rear. I have used/ seen them done a lot of ways.
I have built baffles for the rear speaker holes and put the mid/tweet there. I have remot mounted the tweet. basicly the skys the limit.
Pepsi where in MI are you from?

Tim

[pepsi2185]

Detroit area, im actually on the north side of metro airport in a hole called romulus.

[Fas-Linc]

I grew up in Redford and gradiated from Redford union. over 20 years ago, god time flys.

Tim

[pepsi2185]

what brought you to wyoming???

[Fas-Linc]

moved to So Dakota in the milatary. After I got out went back to Mich for about 3 years, couldn't stand it. moved back to SD. then moved to Wy for a Job.

You ever go to the dream cruise?
Tim

[pepsi2185]

yes of course, but unfortunately usually the most daring of street rodders and veterans go down there now. You got kids throwing bleach on the street at night trying to get you to peel out and anyone with a true classic "dont touch" ride wouldnt allow there car to be aroudn that many people. But yes after the lecture, i do go, there is also now a downriver cruise also which is nice.

Why do you ask???

I wish i had a digi cam i would take pics for all of you this year.

[Fas-Linc]

Before my parents moved to Florida I had them tape the channel 7 special so I could see all the fun. A couple years ago a good friends S-10 was shown.
I may have to have my sister or Father in law to tape it this year.

maybe next year I will attend with the town car.

Tim

[pepsi2185]

hell if you got a camcorder ill take first hands shots for you. You really need to be there its not the same. Think of it as a couple miles of car shows right next to each other. People park in the lots along woodward and have small gatherings and such.

Big Joe

[pepsi2185]

I got the idea for my TC. Now what if this is all in a sebring convertible. My gf's speakers are blown and she wants a system. Is a convertible taboo for sound systems, is there anything i can do in her car to make it sound good beyond the usual. (usual being coax speakers, sub and amplifier setup)

[SQ_LSC]

I have no experience with convertibles, so I don't wanna give advise on a guess.

If you want her to have a nice system, Spend the bulk of what your spending on good speakers. Good, meaning one's that you like! Get her a nice set of components with silk tweeters and try messing with mounting the tweeters in the A-pillars. Don't try aiming them at you, but more across the dash to the other side. If you go with door mounting, throw a sheet of absorbtion matting on the inside of the door when you mount them.

Here's one I can recommend that makes a world of a difference at little cost. Most cars will excite the dash because of the large open cavity behind it and resonate at around 60hz when the stereo is loud. Get a piece of rigid insulation or cardboard and cut panels to close those gaps underneath the dash. wrap it in some matching cloth or carpet material to match the interior of the vehicle. Besides a badly tuned car, resonation is the biggest contributor towards bad sound.

Besides decent speakers and a little absorbative materials here and there, get a HU that has alot of equalization capability.

If I list anymore, It wouldn't be just a decent system anymore but will escalate the price quickly. smile.gif The way it is installed is so much more important than WHAT is installed.

[pepsi2185]

Why would you aim the tweeters across the dash instead of toward the driver???

Ive noticed this is how the grand ams are.

[SQ_LSC]

because the one that is closest to you would drawl alot of attention to itself. The difference in distance between them and your ears is to great to point right at you. Unless you can and want to crank up the one on the passenger's side which is not an ideal setup.

[91MochafrostLSC]

When I choose a stereo, I generally go with what the brand offers vs. usage of features vs. price. I used to be die hard Pioneer, then Kenwood. But lately it seems as though some of these brands have been cheapin' out I like to say. So as far as good quality system for the money I went with Eclipse. I just bought a new 8443 for the Mark and couldn't be happier. It plays the scratched-to-hell-Ludacris CD that my Kenwood doesn't play, thanks in part to there Proprietary digital servo system and the integrated twin laser pick up. Eat that Pioneer. Iwas really sold on Eclipse when I had my Ranger Iwent and purchased my first Eclipse, not sure what to expect, Then paired that to a 3422 amp and a set of factory replacement Boston Acoustic VF series spakers and whoa! I plan on a similiar set up in the mark later. I plan on a Eclipse 3532 amp w/a set of Boston Acoustic factory replacements and a rear center mounted free air sub.