Townie outsells Zephyr in February

[pro-five-oh]

LS 1074
Zephyr 1874
Townie 3282
Aviator 500
Gator 1959
Mark LT 1024Well I guess that's why the nice lease rate on the Zephyr is coming out. At this rate, Ford's target sales of 30,000 Zephyrs this year ain't gonna happen by +/- 5000 units.

But, at least the best selling Lincoln is getting axed pretty soon. Ya gotta see the silver lining, people. I mean, it only makes sense!:confused:

[cason1]

Ok so year to date, the Towncar has outsold the Zephyr by 1300 cars while this month alone doing it by 1400. Hmmm, gotta love Ford rationale.:dunno: :rolleyes:

According to Vitas' post and this one, the Towncar has sold 5865 units, the Zephyr has sold 4566 and the LS has sold a lowly 1947. Hahaha. Guess Ford's thinking on FWD being preferred over RWD is slightly flawed. 7812 RWD cars sold vs. 4566 FWD ones. Wow do they have this pulse of the market stuff nailed.:D

[Shrewsbury]

The Ford leadership is just demonstrating all the perfect logic that has allowed Japanese manufacturers to embarass them year-after-year in their own backyard. These guys are the dimwits of the business world.
Shame on Bill Ford & crew for even *considering* eliminating the Panther platform! :mad:
I guess in 20 years I'll be forced to drive all the other great RWD platforms of the world - Lexus, Benz, etc. This really miffs me off! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[cason1]

The Ford leadership is just demonstrating all the perfect logic that has allowed Japanese manufacturers to embarass them year-after-year in their own backyard. These guys are the dimwits of the business world.
Shame on Bill Ford & crew for even *considering* eliminating the Panther platform! :mad:
I guess in 20 years I'll be forced to drive all the other great RWD platforms of the world - Lexus, Benz, etc. This really miffs me off! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Hell in 20 years, Ford should be back to RWD again. Chrysler is coming back, GM is coming back after running FWD's since the 80's. I feel Ford will eventually figure out where they went wrong. Might be after all plants and dealerships are closed but I think they will figure it out. In 20 years I predict all mid-large cars will be RWD. The small, econo, compacts will keep FWD.

[Shrewsbury]

At the current rate of decline, American auto-makers will be lucky to even be around in 20 years. Sad, but true.

[pro-five-oh]

Shame on Bill Ford & crew for even *considering* eliminating the Panther platform! :mad:


Odds are the Crown Vic and Grandma-queeze will still be made, its just the Townie that faces extinction because of the death of its factory and its "replacement" by AWD and FWD Volvo-derived Lincolns. These cars are supposed to be the face of the new Lincoln and we are all supposed to like them. Ya never know, if enough people see how well the Town Car does to this day, they could easily enough make it with the Ford and Merc panthers. There is a method to my madness, I think. :o

And this info isn't presented to be a slam on the Zephyr: its just trying to prove a point: old people, limo companies, and some young fools still buy Town Cars. Its so much easier to keep a loyal customer than it is to try to court new ones with Volvo-Lincs.

I think Vitas and I need to make sure we get this sales info every month. How fascinating to see how the youth oriented Lincoln does battle (relatively speaking) with the old fogey's delight. Its a battle for Lincoln supremacy!

[Shrewsbury]

Rumor is that even the CV & GM are scheduled to be replaced by the Australian Ford Falcon platform. What then? :confused: Will these models still carry the CV and GM nameplates?

Also, Volvos used to be a nice RWD cars. Reliable, sound, simple to fix. Even went well on ice/snow covered Scandavian roads. Now, well...cost reductions have happened. Modular construction is more "efficient." Major components of Volvos are even now made in the Far East, the pioneers of FWD and the "disposable car." :(

Part of the paradox is that one of the major attributes of the TC that attracted me (and a lot of other LoL TC drivers) is that used ones are relatively cheap to buy (and cheap to maintain, and they get good milage, too, if you treat them well). They are cheap to buy because of low demend - most if the young "hip" crowd doesn't want them. Which causes Ford to consider elminating them. Quite a shame, as the TC is, IMHO ,the best riding car on the road - period. (Yeah - I'm biased)

I think part of the bottom line is this - if you are selling cars, you want to snag the young buyer, and this is for 2 main reasons:
1. Most often you can get a lot of brand loyalty if you can get the customer as soon as he/she starts driving. Then you most often have them for life. Look at the rabid brand loyalty of pickup truck owners and the NASCAR crowd (and "ricers"). Young buyers also communicate their opinions (and their flashy rides) to their impressionable peers, and you have a snowball effect.
2. Older drivers (i.e., retirees, near retirees) are usually very fianicially sound. So sound in fact that many of them pay cash for new cars (as do a lot of fleet buyers). This is bad for the car maker, because much profit is to be taken in fianancing the product. Most young buyers can't afford to pay cash.
My point: Automakers don't really care about older drivers, it's the teenagers and 20-somethings that matter the most. The new Lincoln models are a desperate grab at this younger market. Just look at the sales of Navis - most are no doubt sold to the younger crowd (how does the Zephyr census stack up?). I just hope it works well enough to get FoMoCo (and GM) out of this mess they are in.

So while Ford & GM are still out-selling anyone else in the US, they are quickly losing ground to the more "hip" and younger-crowd oriented car makers.

Sorry for the rant. :o

Also - GO TOWNIE!!!! KICK BUTT IN SALES!!!
WHOOP!!! WHOOP!!! WHOOP!!! :cheer:

[pepsi2185]

45-50 grand worth of towncar outsells 30-35 grand worth of zephyr. They havent dropped anything yet, Im giving them the benefit of the doubt. As of this and last year, ford was profitable world wide. ford is in a much better place than GM right now.

[Vitas]

Pro, here you go, here is December:

(November may have been a partial month for the new Zephyr)


Town Car
4,301


LS
901


Zephyr
2,129



http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=22189&make_id=trust

[gadget73]

Makes you wonder what Ford's marketing department is doing with their time.


Aussie Falcons are RWD, and till pretty recently, Cleveland powered. I'd be happy with a Falcon based Towncar with an EFI Cleveland in it.

[pro-five-oh]

Aussie Falcons are RWD, and till pretty recently, Cleveland powered. I'd be happy with a Falcon based Towncar with an EFI Cleveland in it.
They now run I-6s like a Toyota Supra or Mod motors. I think the hi-po versions (Tickford) run 5.4s. Yeah, its not a full frame chassis + solid axle, but I would publicly wet myself for Lincoln if they green lighted such a vehicle and called it a Town Car. Maybe with a little 1980s styling too, just to set it all off.

You heard it Lincoln Marketing folks who read this site: I'll publicly wet myself for you guys if you treat me right! :o

Pro, here you go, here is December:
(November may have been a partial month for the new Zephyr)

I think you are right about November, but if this sales trend continues, the next few months of Zephyr sales are really gonna show us if Lincoln was right about killing off the LS and giving us the Zephyr.

Though I expect the Zephyr lease they just offered (it always pays to wait for a few months, the deals get WAY better) will help out sales, at least in the short term. Though the factory can't seem to be making enough Fusions right now...

[Vitas]

Makes you wonder what Ford's marketing department is doing with their time.

We have to wait for what they give us for the real Lincoln. The Zephyr, I think, is fine for an entry level Lincoln.

It is not intended, or priced, to be the top of the line Lincoln.

[Vitas]

I think you are right about November, but if this sales trend continues, the next few months of Zephyr sales are really gonna show us if Lincoln was right about killing off the LS and giving us the Zephyr.

The LS has consistently fallen on Consumer Reports cars to avoid list. As in, bad bad bad. That is enough for me.

[pro-five-oh]

The LS has consistently fallen on Consumer Reports cars to avoid list. As in, bad bad bad. That is enough for me.

Yeah but CR's twisted logic somehow managed to make the Honda Ridgeline the best rated pickup. Sure the 'Line delights its customers, but its customers are far from being a proper sample of pickup truck owners.

To be fair, CR says the same thing about Mercedes Benz: rightfully so, I might add. But I will still lust after anything they make with the AMG logos on them. And I am far from being the only one. The LS Sport V8 was nothing less than an AMG on the cheap, Lexus ES cheap, and its a shame so few people understand that.

[Vitas]

To be fair, CR says the same thing about Mercedes Benz: rightfully so, I might add. But I will still lust after anything they make with the AMG logos on them. And I am far from being the only one. The LS Sport V8 was nothing less than an AMG on the cheap, Lexus ES cheap, and its a shame so few people understand that.

You are going to have to explain that one.

[pro-five-oh]

You are going to have to explain that one.

Its pretty simple...the LS has brutal horsepower, 50/50 weight distribution, perfect steering (maybe a little too numb on center) and its all for around the price of a loaded Lexus ES or base GS. The last Car and Driver comparison test with the '04 LS versus a handful of Japanese and German sedans pretty much showed the performance superiority of the LS.

But CR isn't about performance, its about the cold hard facts. The facts are the 13,000 Ridgeline customers are more satisfied than the 900,000 F150 customers and the fact that the LS and most Mercedes are horribly unreliable compared to a Lexus.

But would any of us really want to own a tarted up Camry with Lexus badges on it instead of a V6/V8 Benz or LS? (Lexus owner Sysanalyst will chime in here)

[Vitas]

Its pretty simple...the LS has brutal horsepower, 50/50 weight distribution, perfect steering (maybe a little too numb on center) and its all for around the price of a loaded Lexus ES or base GS. The last Car and Driver comparison test with the '04 LS versus a handful of Japanese and German sedans pretty much showed the performance superiority of the LS.

But CR isn't about performance, its about the cold hard facts. The facts are the 13,000 Ridgeline customers are more satisfied than the 900,000 F150 customers and the fact that the LS and most Mercedes are horribly unreliable compared to a Lexus.

But would any of us really want to own a tarted up Camry with Lexus badges on it instead of a V6/V8 Benz or LS? (Lexus owner Sysanalyst will chime in here)

Lexus? Camry? What the hell are those? Something that I should know about?

The LS does have brutal HP. But that is irrelevant if it is in the shop all the time.

[pro-five-oh]

Lexus? Camry? What the hell are those? Something that I should know about?
I was alluding to the fact that Toyota and Honda products pretty much rule the roost in CR reporting. Not that they are wrong for that, its just hardly representative of what kind of car I'd drive (or anyone else with a need for style and passion on wheels) if I was going to spend $35,000 for a car.

And if I remember correctly, our Fox body Continentals scored horribly in CR reports back in the day. Yeah mine was in the shop a lot, but not enough to make me wanna sell it. The LS is the same thing 20 years later in my opinion.

[Vitas]

And if I remember correctly, our Fox body Continentals scored horribly in CR reports back in the day. Yeah mine was in the shop a lot, but not enough to make me wanna sell it. The LS is the same thing 20 years later in my opinion.

I vaguely remember those CR reports. Probably mostly related to the air suspension.

[Shrewsbury]

But CR isn't about performance, its about the cold hard facts. The facts are the 13,000 Ridgeline customers are more satisfied than the 900,000 F150 customers and the fact that the LS and most Mercedes are horribly unreliable compared to a Lexus.


With those sales numbers, the F150 is a victim of the bell curve. Also, folks in the US who honestly have a need for a real pick-up would laugh themselves silly if you suggested they purchase a Ridgeline. Heck, my TC is better suited for towing and hauling. There just ain't no substitute for the real thing, and pick-ups are where Detroit rules. And that's a crown that I seriously doubt any car company based outside North America will ever even come close to challenging. CR can hawk all they want, but what matters is SALES. ;)

The type of person that spends $$$ for an LS or Benz are also the same type that will complain at the drop of a hat. Most Lexus owners are previous/current Toyota drivers. I'm not so sure many would complain if something were wrong.

[worldkeepsakes]

With those sales numbers, the F150 is a victim of the bell curve. Also, folks in the US who honestly have a need for a real pick-up would laugh themselves silly if you suggested they purchase a Ridgeline. Heck, my TC is better suited for towing and hauling. There just ain't no substitute for the real thing, and pick-ups are where Detroit rules. And that's a crown that I seriously doubt any car company based outside North America will ever even come close to challenging. CR can hawk all they want, but what matters is SALES. ;)

The type of person that spends $$$ for an LS or Benz are also the same type that will complain at the drop of a hat. Most Lexus owners are previous/current Toyota drivers. I'm not so sure many would complain if something were wrong.
All these numbers confuse me??? But I'll agree with the hillbillie!!!!!
;)

[Nick]

Who really pays attention to CS for auto info? They can't possibly have a single car enthusiast on staff. They're for the utilitarian who just wants transportation from A to B. The real auto world doesn't work like CS projects. For any collected data or test, you really need to see what is being measured, how its measured, the test population, and how the data is interpreted. CS basically represents the ultimate utilitarian consumer: passionless, inadept at technology, a little lazy, and a product of a throw away society. If I wanted the most reliable and bland vehicle out there that comes highly rated from them, it'd probably be a Camry or some other ultra mundane rental car made for the average Joe that is expected to serve a fairly long useful life with minimal input from me and then is expected to be tossed into the scrap heap without a care.

I don't ever want a Camry; I definitely don't want to be an average Joe. I don't even want our President to be an average Joe! I'd rather smile every time I drive and have something much more unique and fun. How many supercars have less than stellar reliability? Their owners still love their cars though and still endure long waits and high premiums for them. Similarly, I don't think that many English sports cars would not have sold if CS rated them unreliable. How many would gladly put up with a few niggling faults to have an E-Type in their garage or maybe an Austin Healey or a even a Lotus? How many Ferrari owners pay huge sums for routine service? I bet you they won't trade you their prancing horse for 50 reliable, cheap to maintain, and mundane cars.

The LS may have its small problems, but the design is head over heels better than what Lincoln and Ford has offered for years. It would be more historically important if it was a bigger seller, but it's so radically different from the Lincoln norm and successful at achieving its design goals and meeting or exceeding its design benchmarks that I think it's an important car. If the Mark II represented the best of what we could muster in the '50s, and the Continental redefined American style for the '60s, and the Mark VII LSC made a successful break from traditional large Lincolns to pursue Euro grand tourers, then the LS should and does represent the best attempt yet to break with traditional definitions of a Lincoln and compete directly with the imports while attracting ever younger buyers, a good number of whom would never have considered a Lincoln before. The LS's specs read quite well, especially if you're looking to attack corners or you're comparing them to an import luxury sports sedan. The things Pro listed aren't that easy to design and fine tune or too cheap overall: near 50/50 weight balance, independent SLA suspensions, anti-dive/anti-squat geometry, aluminum bits everywhere, and even the battery in the trunk next to a full size spare (before the bean counters got to it later). If they kept it up to date and kept tuning it, it could have been a much better contender. Lincoln engineers even entered one in the Car and Driver One Lap of America for the last couple of years with some limited success and with some factory support. The last factory supported Lincoln driven in anger was in the '50s. The car just brims with potential and carries a fine list of credentials.

I really can't see the car being more problematic than the '80s Fox Lincolns we have. It certainly can't be worse than the V6 Continentals. What are the usual problems that get reported? Electronic and electrical glitches? Mechanically, the cars seem to be pretty sound. As with any new car, all the electronic systems will be harder for a shadetree mechanic to diagnose and fix. There will be a learning curve and a probable need to invest in some higher tech tools, but I don't believe service to be impossible. The only real problem I see down the road is that parts will be harder to get and be possibily more expensive due to the fewer number of cars made. I'd avoid getting one with a navigation system, but I'd avoid that on pretty much any used car. Those types of systems will probably get outdated and parts will be a nightmare.

I will concede that for many people, any or even a small service problem just won't be acceptable because they can't or don't want to pay someone to fix it or they really are inconvenienced by having their car in the shop every so often. These are the extreme utilitarians or just picky people to whom CS serves. It's not a wrong view, but it's a different view and the data and information CS projects has to be taken in light of the real world and the demographics represented.

As I keep looking towards a BMW for a future car, the LS keeps popping up as a serious dynamic contender and because of a price advantage. I only wish there was a wider availability or even an existence of go-fast parts, a higher chance of parts interchangeability with other models, and a manual transmission with the V8.

[CobraConti]

I agree, the LS is a wonderful car and I would love to own one. LOTS of LS's around here, by the way. Anyways, an 03+ V8 with intake, chip, and exhaust is a beast........I've heard.

[Philip]

I always liked the LS until I actually got inside one to drive. Had an '05 loaner from my L/M dealer while the Mark was in for control arms a month or two ago. The performance is there, I'll give that to you, but materials and overall driving feel left me disappointed. I would say plain and simple, it's just not what I was used to driving. However, when your hips and right leg go to sleep or ache because of the driving position required by the interior, that's a problem, but I'm tall. I absolutely love the Zephyr, based on it's good looks in and out, and will have to test drive one to settle this dispute in my mind.

It's the only Lincoln product that I could come close to owning new, and I think it's a great entry level product, as Vitas has said over and over. It's not supposed to be looked at at their top offering, it just happens to be the new kid on the block right now, so it's getting scrutinized heavily. The last Mark and Continental got away with that because they were amazing evolutions of the previous cars. The Town Car will always be loved by many, but I have to say I don't care for the current front and rear fascia freshening, previous car ('98 to ??) was hot to me. The auto industry has changed so much in the last decade, and I have to wonder if cars will ever have that much individuality again for less than $100K. We will have to wait and see, simply put.