Spark Plugs...Just curious..as usual!

[87 town]

Just wondering how often you all change your plugs. I think the routine suggested time is 30 k miles on these cars. I don't have my Haynes book with me to be sure..
I know the older cars in the 60's it was 15k miles all the time. Then as time went along the change interval got longer. Different engines and longer lasting plugs. Some of the Platimum plugs even brag about not changing for 50 or 100k miles.
I have 25 k miles on my platimums, but I put them in in 3-02, over 4 years ago. I cleaned up my rotor and distributor cap contacts last night by fine sanding off the carbon and these parts only have 14k on them so I will leave them alone but do plan on changing the plugs and maybe wires. (same age as plugs)
I don't know, I just can't imagine leaving the same plugs in for 50k miles. You have to at least get carbon build up and age is a factor also. Anyhow, just curious how often you all change your plugs?

[nailfoot]

I put 8 new ones in when I bought my Townie, almost a year ago now. But, until yesterday, I never put more than 4000 miles a year on my Townie so it didn't matter.

Yesterday, I started my 60 mile commute, and can feel some vibration in the engine almost like a miss. I think I put platinums in there, so they are coming out my next day off and probably new wires will be in the books as well.

[87 town]

I put 8 new ones in when I bought my Townie, almost a year ago now. But, until yesterday, I never put more than 4000 miles a year on my Townie so it didn't matter.

Yesterday, I started my 60 mile commute, and can feel some vibration in the engine almost like a miss. I think I put platinums in there, so they are coming out my next day off and probably new wires will be in the books as well.

your plugs only a year old with only 4k miles on em. they are probably still good in my opinion. (wires may be old/weak/though?) maybe check a couple plugs out first to see what they look like... one thing to check out also might be your ignition coil. i was running rough last month and the tower on my ignition coil and the wire connection was worn/corroded. A quick change for $15. and I was "restored"!
One of the reasons i'm doing my plugs is to hopefully increase my spark and rpm just enough to kill my oil light i tend to get at low rpms, besides of the fact that they are old in age and have 24k on em.

[Dereck]

Hi 87 Town

In my old 88TC I used regular copper plugs left them in for the full 30,000 miles but by about 25,000miles they were letting me know it was coming up time for a change.

Regards

Dereck

[87 town]

Hi 87 Town

In my old 88TC I used regular copper plugs left them in for the full 30,000 miles but by about 25,000miles they were letting me know it was coming up time for a change.

Regards

Dereck

Makes sense and just about where I'm at. Thanks for the confirmaiton.

[gadget73]

I think I have about 20k on my Autolite platinums and they show no visible wear yet. Its recently developed a very slight low speed rough running issue that I'm not sure about. It may need plugs but I'm not certain.

[Sysanalyst]

I used the Autolite platinums for my 97 Townie and the vehicle ran like a vehicle that had bad plugs. I then put in a set of Autolite Coppers and all has been well. Also changed the wires as they were original with 95K miles on them.

Just an FYI, K-Mart is getting rid of their old "SplitFire" plugs on clearance. I purchased 8 two packs for 99 cents per pair. Turns out they fit my Corvette and also fit 5.0L engines. Not a big fan of SplitFire plugs, but I'm a cheapskate that sees a deal with .50 spark plugs. Check out your local K-Mart and see if they have some cheap SplitFires for your Townie.

[Ivan D.]

I used the Autolite platinums for my 97 Townie and the vehicle ran like a vehicle that had bad plugs. I then put in a set of Autolite Coppers and all has been well.
I know the 5.0s aren't supposed to like anything fancy, but I run Autolite Platinums and I've never had any problems, the car runs smooth and when stepped on takes off like a bat outta hell.

[Elemino]

I know the 5.0s aren't supposed to like anything fancy, but I run Autolite Platinums and I've never had any problems, the car runs smooth and when stepped on takes off like a bat outta hell.I'm running copper core NGK plugs. 8.5mm MSD wires... nice to say, but I have no clue if it helped anything. :D Maybe I should upgrade to the blaster coil and the MSD distributor. It gave a Mustang 5.0 8hp on Horse Power tv on SpikeTV.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/6/web/114000-114999/114931_52_full.jpg

[gadget73]

On a stock motor the MSD coil won't really do much but suck some cash out of your wallet and put red parts under the hood. I run MSD distributor caps because they're actually slightly cheaper than buying generic brass terminal caps. Accel ones are about $2 less tho, so next time I'm due I might go for one of those. I'm not particular, I just want those brass contacts because they hold up better.

I have NGK plugs in my boat. Its actually the factory reccomended plug now after years of reccomending AC Delco ones. It seems to run slightly better on them, and I have no complaints. Even after being laid up for the winter and having a full season of run time, both motors ran like a watch this weekend when we went out. I run Autolite Platinums in the Towncar, no complaints from it. Truck has Autolite plugs too, not sure if they are copper or platinum but it seems happier with these than the Bosch plugs it had before. No more ping problems.

I also use Ford Racing wires, again chosen more for quality and price vs the bling factor. Larger diameter wires than stock and they're only like $45. I have a generic Summit high output TFI coil, and I used to have an Accel TFI module till it cooked after the motor overheated. Right now I'm running an unknown age Motorcraft TFI module and it runs absolutely no different than the Accel one did.

[Elemino]

On a stock motor the MSD coil won't really do much but suck some cash out of your wallet and put red parts under the hood.Well, it'll give you approximately 8hp more at the rear wheels. ;)

I kinda wanted to upgrade to all MSD ignition, because I wanted the accuracy in my ignition. The stock setup distributor seems to be slopily made IMO, and I demand precision where I can get it. :D

[luxuryrules]

Thain, what kind of motors in your boat?

Appears we've reached the same conclusion about plugs too. I've always liked NGK plugs in a wide variety of vehicles and had no running issues. Bosch... hehe, work just fine in my brother's Audi and that's about it.
My Mark's getting Autolite 764s in the near future here, curious to see how that will turn out.

[Ivan D.]

I kinda wanted to upgrade to all MSD ignition, because I wanted the accuracy in my ignition. The stock setup distributor seems to be slopily made IMO, and I demand precision where I can get it. :DCan you run an MSD box without the TFI module on an EFI engine? Cause if you can, then my Holley Anihillator box can probably do it too, although the Holley guys said no to that idea.

[Elemino]

I wouldn't know. The MSD parts I looked up were direct replacements. Meaning the distributor works with the TFI module and with no box. (I'm assuming you're talking about the extra hardware that goes along with after market ignition systems)

[Ivan D.]

Yeah, I was referring to the 6AL ignition control boxes and others of that type. So you basically wanna run an MSD coil and billet distributor with TFI, right? I got half of that system on mine, that its the Blaster coil and the cap/rotor, but my distributor is still the stock one. I also have a stand-alone ignition box by Holley, with built it rev-limiter and such, I got it in order to get rid of the TFI but the Holley techs said I still have to use the TFI - which is the reason the ignition box is still in a box in my closet.

[gadget73]

Thain, what kind of motors in your boat?



MerCruiser MCM260, also known as a Chevy 350 with a Webber 4bbl carb.

[luxuryrules]

MerCruiser MCM260, also known as a Chevy 350 with a Webber 4bbl carb.

K, when you said AC Delco I figured a GM but thought I'd check. Interesting that they've got you using NGK now. Up till now, I've been telling my GM customers that AC plugs are the way to go, but looks like I'll have to look into NGK.

[gadget73]

This is just the marine motors. Its not GM that suggests them, its MerCruiser. No idea really why, but they run fine, no real difference between them and the AC plugs. They even manage to run OK on Champion plugs, in spite of how much I dislike them.

[Elemino]

Yeah, I was referring to the 6AL ignition control boxes and others of that type. So you basically wanna run an MSD coil and billet distributor with TFI, right? I got half of that system on mine, that its the Blaster coil and the cap/rotor, but my distributor is still the stock one. I also have a stand-alone ignition box by Holley, with built it rev-limiter and such, I got it in order to get rid of the TFI but the Holley techs said I still have to use the TFI - which is the reason the ignition box is still in a box in my closet.Yep. As you can see from my pics above, I already have the wires. Now I just need the blaster coil and the distributor.

[Ivan D.]

How big are those MSD wires, 10mm? I tun the 9mm FRPP ones - bigger (and therefore better) than stock, Ford Racing quality, very good price, and a choice of red, blue, and black, what more can one want? ;) That MSD distributor would be nice though, but for now my engine performance level doesn't justify installation of one.

[Elemino]

How big are those MSD wires, 10mm? I tun the 9mm FRPP ones - bigger (and therefore better) than stock, Ford Racing quality, very good price, and a choice of red, blue, and black, what more can one want? ;) That MSD distributor would be nice though, but for now my engine performance level doesn't justify installation of one.They're the 8.5mm super conductor wires. The wire is copper wrapped around a ferro magnetic core (which acts like a choke). Copper wire is the same as saying its a regular wire going straight from the coil to the plugs. Plus its made out of some kind of high temp material so they can withstand extreme temps of headers and such. I don't think it can get any better. Extra size from there is really about bragging and tricking people into thinking the wires are better. I mean, unless you're running a seriously rediculously high voltage.

BTW, better performance is exactly why I want the MSD distributor. More accurate timing means better performance, better fuel mileage. Not to mention its made to run higher voltages if you want to. :D

[87 town]

I'm running copper core NGK plugs. 8.5mm MSD wires... nice to say, but I have no clue if it helped anything. :D Maybe I should upgrade to the blaster coil and the MSD distributor. It gave a Mustang 5.0 8hp on Horse Power tv on SpikeTV.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/6/web/114000-114999/114931_52_full.jpg

Elimino...Beautiful engine... I can tell you take good care. I ended up putting autolite platinum plugs, 8mm wires, basic rotor and distributor cap. Had problems though at first. Thought i would just do the plugs, but ran a little rough, put in new wires, still not right, new rotor, better now, but not right. Finally did the distributor cap and just right. Parts guy told me that on the older ford engines you should do all at once ro get right. First I heard that, but worked out. Spent about $80. total for all parts.
Hey everyone, thanks for all the advice and comments. Looks like the census to change is about 25-30 k miles and platinum or copper seem to both work out and are more of a personal preference.

[gadget73]

You can usually do about 25k on the plugs, cap, and rotor, and double that on the wires if they're good quality.

[Sixlitre]

Elimino...Beautiful engine... I can tell you take good care. I ended up putting autolite platinum plugs, 8mm wires, basic rotor and distributor cap. Had problems though at first. Thought i would just do the plugs, but ran a little rough, put in new wires, still not right, new rotor, better now, but not right. Finally did the distributor cap and just right. Parts guy told me that on the older ford engines you should do all at once ro get right. First I heard that, but worked out. Spent about $80. total for all parts.
Hey everyone, thanks for all the advice and comments. Looks like the census to change is about 25-30 k miles and platinum or copper seem to both work out and are more of a personal preference.

87Town

Every Mustang and Bronco 5.0 litre tech site I've ever seen

recommends the cheapest, low-line, plain jane Autolites or Motorcrafts for 5.0 litres.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/231771/fullsize/IMG_0055.JPG (http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/media/231771_1)

Having done 6 entirely different Ford vehicles with 5.0 litres I couldn't agree more, they work !

For some reason 5.0 litres DO NOT appreciate or run well with premium plugs, they want the cheapest Autolites or Motorcrafts money can buy.

Seeing as you went for new, quality plug wires and a new cap&rotor, if you're willing to spring for an MSD coil (@$44), I'll let you in on a major mileage and throttle reponse increase just waiting for you to take advantage of on a 5.0 litre.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/231769/fullsize/IMG_0059.JPG (http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/media/231769_1)

Slap the MSD coil on (5 minutes). Change the plugs to cheap Autolites gapped out to .055 instead of the stock setting, then hang on for the way it'll leap off the line.

A week later, bump your base timing from the stock 10 degrees to @ 13.5 degrees and hang on again !

My 90' 5.0 litre knocks off better mileage than many stock 4.6 TCs with just this trick, a K&N drop in filter and a modified exhaust.

Don't believe me on the plugs ? Read up on any Mustang or truck site. Here's the exhaust trick and search the rest of the site for the ignition parts there;

http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/9371/28549#content

Sixlitre

[Elemino]

So the blaster coil does have proven performance gains? Might have to look into it. I understand how platinum plugs may have a strange affect on the 5.0. But copper is the best conductor of electricity, meaning its perfect for plugs. They still use the same gaps and are made the same.

[87 town]

87Town

Every Mustang and Bronco 5.0 litre tech site I've ever seen

recommends the cheapest, low-line, plain jane Autolites or Motorcrafts for 5.0 litres.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/231771/fullsize/IMG_0055.JPG (http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/media/231771_1)

Having done 6 entirely different Ford vehicles with 5.0 litres I couldn't agree more, they work !

For some reason 5.0 litres DO NOT appreciate or run well with premium plugs, they want the cheapest Autolites or Motorcrafts money can buy.

Seeing as you went for new, quality plug wires and a new cap&rotor, if you're willing to spring for an MSD coil (@$44), I'll let you in on a major mileage and throttle reponse increase just waiting for you to take advantage of on a 5.0 litre.

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/231769/fullsize/IMG_0059.JPG (http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/media/231769_1)

Slap the MSD coil on (5 minutes). Change the plugs to cheap Autolites gapped out to .055 instead of the stock setting, then hang on for the way it'll leap off the line.

A week later, bump your base timing from the stock 10 degrees to @ 13.5 degrees and hang on again !

My 90' 5.0 litre knocks off better mileage than many stock 4.6 TCs with just this trick, a K&N drop in filter and a modified exhaust.

Don't believe me on the plugs ? Read up on any Mustang or truck site. Here's the exhaust trick and search the rest of the site for the ignition parts there;

http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/9371/28549#content

Sixlitre

Thanks, I may try out the MSD coil. I heard though from others on this site a couple months ago that the standard original equip. coil was best and that the high performance coils didn't do anything extra and even "hummed" a little.
I was running the K&N Filter for a while in the past and I noticed immediate increase in power. Then, when it came time for a cleaning I just went back to paper filter. Maybe a K&N is in order again. How long do you run before cleaning?
Interesting info on the plugs too. Basic copper and set .055 instead of .050
Thanks, I took some notes on this. Can always use better performance and mph.

[Elemino]

Who in the world on here claims they can hear a hum coming from that coil while the engine is running? I'd like to see/hear that.

[Sixlitre]

Thanks, I may try out the MSD coil. I heard though from others on this site a couple months ago that the standard original equip. coil was best and that the high performance coils didn't do anything extra and even "hummed" a little.
I was running the K&N Filter for a while in the past and I noticed immediate increase in power. Then, when it came time for a cleaning I just went back to paper filter. Maybe a K&N is in order again. How long do you run before cleaning?
Interesting info on the plugs too. Basic copper and set .055 instead of .050
Thanks, I took some notes on this. Can always use better performance and mph.

87 town

Yes the cheapest Autolites do work the best. I don't think those are even copper are they ? Instal the MSD coil, then gap the Autolites out to .055 and toss em' in.

You WILL notice a difference believe me. After that wait a week then bump the base timing from 10 to 13.5. That'll really wake that puppy up.

I've never heard a hum and I run some serious stereo stuff in the bronco.

The K&N filter made a seat of the pants difference on the bronco, but the day I slapped one in the TC I recorded a solid 2mpg hwy increase.

Here's a link to how easy washing a K&N is;

http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/4970/24971#content

After you spray the crap on, all you do is wash it out and dry it;

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/199508/fullsize/IMG_0051.JPG (http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/media/199508_1)

Granted, like you I waited 4 years to do it. The people that shoot down K&Ns are the people with a mass air sensor downstream. They work well for us 5.0 litre TCs.

Sixlitre

[gadget73]

Who in the world on here claims they can hear a hum coming from that coil while the engine is running? I'd like to see/hear that.

Feel free to come to New Jersey and stand next to my car. Mine buzzes while the car is running. The stock one did not. Mine is mounted on the fender and I can hear it buzzing distinctly if I stand next to that area of the car with the hood closed. I went from a stock coil to a Summit Blaster TFI and an Accell TFI module. No change. The Accel module died and I swapped it for an original 1988 Ford module, and the car runs exactly the same.

[Elemino]

Mine is mounted on the fender and I can hear it buzzing distinctly if I stand next to that area of the car with the hood closed.I didn't know they even mounted them to the fenders. I guess that would explain the buzzing sound. You don't have that thick metal brace connected to the engine to absorb the small vibrations of the coil.

[87 town]

87 town

Yes the cheapest Autolites do work the best. I don't think those are even copper are they ? Instal the MSD coil, then gap the Autolites out to .055 and toss em' in.

You WILL notice a difference believe me. After that wait a week then bump the base timing from 10 to 13.5. That'll really wake that puppy up.

I've never heard a hum and I run some serious stereo stuff in the bronco.

The K&N filter made a seat of the pants difference on the bronco, but the day I slapped one in the TC I recorded a solid 2mpg hwy increase.

Here's a link to how easy washing a K&N is;

http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/4970/24971#content

After you spray the crap on, all you do is wash it out and dry it;

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/199508/fullsize/IMG_0051.JPG (http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/media/199508_1)

Granted, like you I waited 4 years to do it. The people that shoot down K&Ns are the people with a mass air sensor downstream. They work well for us 5.0 litre TCs.

Sixlitre

Thanks. I think I will go back to K&N again right away. I do remember the day I put one in, right in the parking lot at the auto parts store. There was a major difference right away. had more power! It just bugs me to spend $45. on it.
Wish I had put in copper plugs to start with, but used the platinum, thinking they were better, but since this thread I started, I see that most of you like the copper best.. (They are copper and package is marked that way). I was in wal mart today and saw them, straight copper for the lowest price and then also autolite platinum for a little more). They are cheap to buy, so maybe in the near future when I have some time to swap em.
The MSD coil. I'm undecided, hearing pros and cons on it. You swear by it and others say, makes no difference. I guess I'll just have to step up to the plate and make my own decision huh? lol

[Ivan D.]

I didn't know they even mounted them to the fenders. I guess that would explain the buzzing sound. You don't have that thick metal brace connected to the engine to absorb the small vibrations of the coil.
I run the MSD coil too, and I could hear the thing buzzing even when mounted to the A/C compressor brace. I has since been moved to the left fender, buzzing sound hasn't increased or decreased, it's still there as loud as before. And I run a clutch-fan without the clutch (fan blade bolted to the waterpump through a spacer intended for flex fans), so it's pretty noisty in there - I can still hear the coil with the hood closed.

[Ivan D.]

The MSD coil. I'm undecided, hearing pros and cons on it. You swear by it and others say, makes no difference. I guess I'll just have to step up to the plate and make my own decision huh? lol
Price difference between that coil and the stock Motorcraft one is just couple of bucks, just get the MSD and be done with it :)

[Ivan D.]

The K&N filter made a seat of the pants difference on the bronco, but the day I slapped one in the TC I recorded a solid 2mpg hwy increase.
Malcolm, do you mind sharing your city/highway mileage with us? With the MSD coil, MSD distributor cap and rotor, Ford Racing 9mm wires, Autolite Platinum plugs @ 0.055", a Spectre Performance cone filter with a straight 75mm pipe, a Mustang intake (60mm opening vs. stock 50mm), a 1/2" intake spacer, and dual 2" side-exiting exhaust without cats or mufflers (glasspacks don't count, their backpressure is next to zero) I currently get about 16-17 city and 23-24 freeway, which is exactly how much I was getting an year ago with the all the old parts - maybe it's time for O2 sensors replacement?

[Sixlitre]

Malcolm, do you mind sharing your city/highway mileage with us? With the MSD coil, MSD distributor cap and rotor, Ford Racing 9mm wires, Autolite Platinum plugs @ 0.055", a Spectre Performance cone filter with a straight 75mm pipe, a Mustang intake (60mm opening vs. stock 50mm), a 1/2" intake spacer, and dual 2" side-exiting exhaust without cats or mufflers (glasspacks don't count, their backpressure is next to zero) I currently get about 16-17 city and 23-24 freeway, which is exactly how much I was getting an year ago with the all the old parts - maybe it's time for O2 sensors replacement?

Ivan

at present, I'm not as good as when I did all these mods last year AND I'm back to a clutch fan, as I had to when the Taurus electric fan died on me(so I'm losing 2-3 mpg).

That said, it is impossible for me to get less than 19 mpg (apples vs apples comparison, using the American sized gallon), no matter how much city driving I do.

Out on the highway I'm nailing down 25-28+ mpg. Don't forget I'm also in the far more areodynamic 90+ body style. It has a drag co-efficient of .034 as compared to earlier models which were .048 (big difference).

Sixlitre

[Oracle]

can you get these things in the uk?

[87 town]

Price difference between that coil and the stock Motorcraft one is just couple of bucks, just get the MSD and be done with it :)

before I bought my stock coil about a month ago for $15. I checked on a high performance coil at the parts store. Told me $70 (not sure is this was MSD)? Is MSD just a term or a brand name and what should be a fair price for it?
Thanks

[87 town]

Ivan

at present, I'm not as good as when I did all these mods last year AND I'm back to a clutch fan, as I had to when the Taurus electric fan died on me(so I'm losing 2-3 mpg).

That said, it is impossible for me to get less than 19 mpg (apples vs apples comparison, using the American sized gallon), no matter how much city driving I do.

Out on the highway I'm nailing down 25-28+ mpg. Don't forget I'm also in the far more areodynamic 90+ body style. It has a drag co-efficient of .034 as compared to earlier models which were .048 (big difference).

Sixlitre

I think we tend to forget about the 02 sensors. I kept failing emmissions test a couple years ago and had new sensors put in. I was afraid of putting in myself. I tried, but they seemed frozen tight and didn't want to take a chance in breaking one. Anyhow, I passed the test easily and also the car ran better as well, but I didn't compare mileage although I bet it improved. Smoother running car = better milage.

[Elemino]

before I bought my stock coil about a month ago for $15. I checked on a high performance coil at the parts store. Told me $70 (not sure is this was MSD)? Is MSD just a term or a brand name and what should be a fair price for it?
Thanks

http://www.msdignition.com/
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MSD%2D8227&FROM=MG

I hope this helps. :D

[87 town]

http://www.msdignition.com/
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MSD%2D8227&FROM=MG

I hope this helps. :D

yep, that helped. $61. is a little less than I previously saw.
thanks

[Dereck]

can you get these things in the uk?

HI Oracle

Yes you can but skip the K&N filter it is a waste of money, look up placebo in the dictionary and it will say "The perceived increase in engine power and gas milage through using a K&N filter":)

Regards

Dereck

[Oracle]

yeah im familar with the k&n filter, I wonder if BMC do an induction kit for the car?

[Elemino]

HI Oracle

Yes you can but skip the K&N filter it is a waste of money, look up placebo in the dictionary and it will say "The perceived increase in engine power and gas milage through using a K&N filter":)

Regards

DereckLOL... yep. As far as I can tell, no gains for me. But I do like the fact it is supposed to last forever (assuming my car does), so I can keep using the same filter. I do think a K&N intake with a larger filter would help though. It sucks being almost LOCKED into the power you're given with these cars. It makes me want something newer everytime I think about it.

[gadget73]

I didn't know they even mounted them to the fenders. I guess that would explain the buzzing sound. You don't have that thick metal brace connected to the engine to absorb the small vibrations of the coil.

1986 only were mounted there from the factory. 85 back and 87 up were mounted to the AC bracket. Don't ask me why it was moved for one year.

[OVERKILL]

HI Oracle

Yes you can but skip the K&N filter it is a waste of money, look up placebo in the dictionary and it will say "The perceived increase in engine power and gas milage through using a K&N filter":)

Regards

Dereck

K&N's are a great investment. They DO flow more air than paper does, that's a no brainer and mine's been in my TC for 10 years now? Its had to be cleaned TWICE. That's ONE bottle of cleaner/oil. So, 45 bucks for the filter, and 10 bucks for the oil, I'm at $55.00 and 10 years of use thus far. I'd say its a damn good deal. Mustang enthusiasts (like myself) swear by the K&N panel filters in the stock airboxes, but we are also pulling in a lot more air than 99% of the Town Car owners on the road....considering finding a "stock" Mustang is a pretty difficult task nowadays.

The MSD stuff is a great investment as well, keeps the plugs cleaner (hotter spark with the better coil) and the wires are great quality! Truly top-notch equipment. I wouldn't bother with the MSD distributor though. Honestly, your engine isn't modded enough to warrant it. If you had a $20,000 longblock with Canfield heads, custom cam and the like and were revving it to 9,000RPM, then yeah, but on a stock engine......its a waste of money.

[Dereck]

K&N's are a great investment. They DO flow more air than paper does, that's a no brainer and mine's been in my TC for 10 years now? Its had to be cleaned TWICE. That's ONE bottle of cleaner/oil. So, 45 bucks for the filter, and 10 bucks for the oil, I'm at $55.00 and 10 years of use thus far. I'd say its a damn good deal.
.

Hi Overkill

Oh dear you have been fooled by the K&N advertising hype as well I feel for you dude :)

The air cleaner replacement interval for a TC is 30,000 miles, so lets say a regular paper filter is 10 bucks and you do 15,000 miles a year. That means in ten years you would have bought 5 filters at a cost of $50 so you are in fact still 5 bucks down.

I agree a K&N does indeed flow more air but they also flow more dirt with it and the couple of independent dyno tests I have seen on the web show no improvement in HP over a stock filter.

Regards

Dereck

[OVERKILL]

Well, you could always come on over the Corral and learn more than you've ever wanted to know about the damn things.

They actually ARE good filters. There have been a number of independant tests that have confirmed that as well.

Since 1996 the car has had 200,000Km put on it. So, at a "every other oil change" change interval, using the standard 7,000Km oil change interval and at $18.00 a filter up here, I come up with $257.00 in air filters, which, to me, is much higher than what has been spent on my K&N.

I think the issue here is that the additional airflow, on our stocker TC motors, isn't needed. Its not that the filters don't work, I've got them on three vehicles with insanely high mileage that myself or my father have personally run up and the internals on the 'stang (the only one I've had apart recently to date) were completely free from any wear; the cylinders still has the ghosts of the cross-hatching on the walls............and it has 330,000 on it! So, saying it "flows more dirt" really doesn't hold any water with me, given that I've seen OTHER tests that prove otherwise, and my own high-mileage 302's agree with that data.

Are you going to notice a "performance" increase from one on a 150HP 302? Not likely. Would you notice some power difference on a factory supercharged '03 Cobra? Dyno tests by Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords says yes. Its all relative to airflow.

[Oracle]

dumb question,

but where exactly are the spark plugs? as I traced the cables back and it seems that they are under the section where the air filter attaches to the engine?

do you have to remove this section to get at the spark plugs, if so isnt that a bit insane?

[87 town]

dumb question,

but where exactly are the spark plugs? as I traced the cables back and it seems that they are under the section where the air filter attaches to the engine?

do you have to remove this section to get at the spark plugs, if so isnt that a bit insane?

This info is for the 5.0 Towncar. I think that is what you have...
Yes, you have to remove the "air box" to get to the spark plugs on the driver side. Remove the large black hose going to the throttle from the the air box. Just remove from the side going to the throttle, not the air box. Loosen the screw on the clamp so it will be free and you should be able to wiggle it loose. Then at the lower front part of the square box "air box", where the filter sits in, (side facing the front of the car) there are 2 little nuts you need to remove with a small ratchet. Then the air duct (The accordian type large plastic duct) leading into the box can be removed by pressing in on it where it enters into the air box. No tools needed here. Just squeeze with your fingers. There are a couple little plastic nubs you need to depress and then the duct will release from the already loose air box.
That should do it. You should now be able to visually see all the 4 plugs in the lower end of the engine block. Just follow the wires from the distributor. On the passenger side, the plugs are already out in the open with no parts to remove for access.
Hope this helps.

[Dereck]

Since 1996 the car has had 200,000Km put on it. So, at a "every other oil change" change interval, using the standard 7,000Km oil change interval and at $18.00 a filter up here, I come up with $257.00 in air filters, which, to me, is much higher than what has been spent on my K&N.

I think the issue here is that the additional airflow, on our stocker TC motors, isn't needed. Its not that the filters don't work, I've got them on three vehicles with insanely high mileage that myself or my father have personally run up and the internals on the 'stang (the only one I've had apart recently to date) were completely free from any wear; the cylinders still has the ghosts of the cross-hatching on the walls............and it has 330,000 on it! So, saying it "flows more dirt" really doesn't hold any water with me, given that I've seen OTHER tests that prove otherwise, and my own high-mileage 302's agree with that data.

Are you going to notice a "performance" increase from one on a 150HP 302? Not likely. Would you notice some power difference on a factory supercharged '03 Cobra? Dyno tests by Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords says yes. Its all relative to airflow.

Hi Overkill

I think you mis-understand. The reccomended service interval for an air filter on a Town Car is 48,000km, so in 200,000km you wouldhave needed 4 air filters so at $18 each (looks like Canadians get ripped off as much as us in the U.K) that is $72 on air filters, I will conceed in this case you have saved a few dollars using your K&N :)

As for flowing more dirt, if they flow more air they odviously are not filtering it as thoroughly as a regular paper filter so must flow more dirt, it is a simular equation to the one that says "You cannot have good gas milage and high power output".

Regards

Dereck

[Oracle]

unless you consider the vw eco racer 0-60 5/6 seconds and 83 mpg

[Dereck]

unless you consider the vw eco racer 0-60 5/6 seconds and 83 mpg

Hi Oracle


This sports car is powered by a 100 kW turbo diesel


100kw = 134hp, I said you cannot have good gas milage and high power output, 134hp isn't exactly stratospheric power output, I wonder what it's fuel comsumption is at 230km/h (142mph).

Hhhmmm I seem to have been lulled into a thread hi-jack :o

Regards

Dereck

[Oracle]

heh, I wonder what the mpg is of the diesel le mans car is :)

[OVERKILL]

Oh, I know a few high powered Mustang owners that would beg to differ. A buddy of mine's A-trimmed coupe (that my heads came off of, he bought AFR's) was consistently getting 30Mpg on our trips to the track. I know my Mustang costs a hell of a lot less to run on the highway than the Town Car does and makes significantly more power. Why? Because it's 1,000lbs lighter and doesn't need to work as hard.

Injected motors are great and insanely efficient, look at the new Z06 Vette, 505HP and almost 30Mpg!!! Just because you have that power AVAILABLE doesn't mean you are using it. A well tuned engine, even one making a great deal of power, can still be "economical" when driven conservatively. That's one of the great things about a boosted car, you can have stock-ish fuel economy......until you get into the boost.

Flowing more air could simply mean that the filter media itself is more efficient. Using a different medium to trap dirt is akin to using a different lure to catch fish. Some are just better than others. Paper is a poor medium because of its flat face, it plugs quickly. Oiled cotton has a more 3-dimensional shape to the filter element and thus can not only flow more air, but be more efficient doing it. The same goes for foam, which is also better than paper.

Paper filters are cheap, easy to produce and not very cleanable. This makes them a profit item. If all cars came with reusable air filters, the companies wouldn't be making any money off the filters now, would they?

It is possible to make a better mouse trap, and no matter how you slice it, simply because paper is the standard medium of choice for OEM, doesn't make it better than any of the other filter types.

K&N filters have a great enthusiast following, people who spend 30+ thousand dollars one their engines use these filters, cars with 100+ dollar engines use these filters. Go to any IHRA/NHRA event and count how many are in use. Open Track/Oval Track.....they are used their as well. And then there are people, like myself, who use them on our "performance modified" daily drivers, rack up 100,000's of thousands of miles/Km on these vehicles without issue. I have NEVER heard of an engine fail from a K&N filter, its much more likely to happen from somebody using cheap oil, a FRAM oil filter, or lack of maintenance than it is from a K&N.

The ONE problem I have with K&N's is that a lot of people do not know how to properly oil them and overdo it. On MAF equipped cars, this can cause issues with the sensor, because it gets covered in oil. A PROPERLY oiled K&N doesn't do this.

Companies like Paxton and Vortec sell their blower kits for thousands of dollars and include........you guess it....a K&N filter. Given the insanely tight tolerances these blower head units run with, keeping dirt out of them is paramount. THEY trust K&N as so many other manufacturers of aftermarket forced-induction setups.

You can swear by paper filters all you like, its no skin off my back. I've done the research, done my own testing and my own personal experience with the product dictates, that, to me, its a good product and does what it claims to do, nothing more, nothing less. If your engine can't benefit from better breathing, its a waste of money if you buy it for that reason. If your engine CAN, well, then, that's a completely different ball of wax.

[91Towncar4.6L]

I have NEVER heard of an engine fail from a K&N filter, its much more likely to happen from somebody using cheap oil, a FRAM oil filter, or lack of maintenance than it is from a K&N.


Just putting this out there...My last car was a 91 chevy lumina that had 170,000 miles on it but it ran just fine and I had no problems with it. After about a years worth of driving this car I put in a K&N filter, and the very next day after driving for about 20 miles the valve stem snapped and put a hole through my piston and destroyed the cylinder head. Im not saying its K&N fault but its kind of strange that would happen 20 miles after swapping the airfilter. It also could of easily of been because of lack of maintence because I bought it for a pretty cheap price.

[OVERKILL]

Well, a valve stem isn't going to snap from an air filter bud :)

[worldkeepsakes]

Makes me wonder what got sucked into the intake, when you changed the filter?

[91Towncar4.6L]

Makes me wonder what got sucked into the intake, when you changed the filter?

Thought about that, but if anything did get past the air filter when it was changed, that object would of had to of went through that screen near the air box which had no damage to it. So the problem was most likely just the car wasn't well maintained before I bought it.

[worldkeepsakes]

Thought about that, but if anything did get past the air filter when it was changed, that object would of had to of went through that screen near the air box which had no damage to it. So the problem was most likely just the car wasn't well maintained before I bought it.
Yeah I hear ya, plus it was a chevy with 170,000 on it. It was time for something to break.

[91Towncar4.6L]

Yeah I hear ya, plus it was a chevy with 170,000 on it. It was time for something to break.

I've always liked ford more then chevy but it was only $200 and it lasted a year so it wasnt too bad of a buy.

[Elemino]

dumb question,

but where exactly are the spark plugs? as I traced the cables back and it seems that they are under the section where the air filter attaches to the engine?

do you have to remove this section to get at the spark plugs, if so isnt that a bit insane?Hmmm... if you don't know where the plugs are, I'm not sure you need to be changing them.

[worldkeepsakes]

Hmmm... if you don't know where the plugs are, I'm not sure you need to be changing them.
Gotta learn someday, He's got a good advantage with this website thingy helping him along. :)

[Elemino]

"You cannot have good gas milage and high power output". I no longer believe in that... I did once. But now they got cars like the G35 that gets 26MPG from a 3.5L V6 engine that produces 295hp and the Impala SS that gets 28MPG 303hp from a 5.3L V8 engine... These cars are a few reasons I feel cheated with my 5.0. These cars are why I look for better products, and preciscion timing.

Edit: I forgot to mention the new GT40 gets 28 to 30 MPG on the highway and it has a 550hp version of the Navi engine in it. The navi can't even get that with its 320hp engine... It's all relative.

[87 town]

Gotta learn someday, He's got a good advantage with this website thingy helping him along. :)

Yep, I'm constantly learning something here! What may seem simple and a no brainer for some, is difficult for others. Like me, not knowing how to use my ohm meter... But, now I know how..And the TV bushing you guys walked me through..
Very cool site!

[Dereck]

I no longer believe in that... I did once. But now they got cars like the G35 that gets 26MPG from a 3.5L V6 engine that produces 295hp and the Impala SS that gets 28MPG 303hp from a 5.3L V8 engine... These cars are a few reasons I feel cheated with my 5.0. These cars are why I look for better products, and preciscion timing.

Edit: I forgot to mention the new GT40 gets 28 to 30 MPG on the highway and it has a 550hp version of the Navi engine in it. The navi can't even get that with its 320hp engine... It's all relative.

Hi Elemino

Hold those cars at WOT so they are producing the maximum stated HP and see how many miles to the gallon they get, a 281ci Town Car (@75mph and 2000rpm) will get 26mpg but you hold it at 4250rpm (where maximum power is produced) and watch the instant fuel usage on the message center and you will see 6mpg :)

Regards

Dereck

[Elemino]

But it would still be nice to have 300hp available while getting those 26MPG (23.9 in my case, see my other post) on the highway.

[Oracle]

Hmmm... if you don't know where the plugs are, I'm not sure you need to be changing them.

Thanks for that, I personally think its better to start working on a car if you're well informed, rather than blindly fumbling around.

but each to their own :)

[Oracle]

god damn those spark plugs are a ****** to get out, managed to get the drivers side ones done fairly quickly, but the passenger side ones?

did ford intentionally make them hard to access?

[OVERKILL]

You haven't seen anything yet bud :) Try to change them on a Mustang with Equal-length shorty headers.................... THAT is hell.

[Rollin6Dr]

Oh you people, try spark the spark plugs on the rear bank of a quad cam V6 FWD engine. Makes these 302s a walk in the park.

[OVERKILL]

Quad-cam? How about an OHV laterally mounted FWD V6? Those are even worse, trying to get to the back plugs is next to impossible.

[Oracle]

:P

I just dont see how ford managed to find the most inconvient places to put the plugs lol

[87 town]

god damn those spark plugs are a ****** to get out, managed to get the drivers side ones done fairly quickly, but the passenger side ones?

did ford intentionally make them hard to access?

In case you haven't finished the pass side yet...below are a few tips.
If you are already done, then you obviously figured it out.
The first time is surely tougher... I got it down to less than 45 minutes eventually for all 8... (after lots of practice). It is all about ratchet extensions to the correct lengths. You pretty much need a 2", 4" and 6" extension to work with (1 length will not work on all of them), and I had the best luck with about a 1.5' breaker bar to loosen the one in the rear. Just be very careful you have a solid and "straight" on fit on the plug before you put any pressure and snap one.
Oh yeah, then be prepared to run you arm into weird positions when hand turning the plugs. Since you won't be able to see the holes when you are putting the new plugs in it is a good idea to stick your finger in there first with the plug ready to insert "rather than" poke around with the plug collecting oil and dirt on it trying to find the hole. Also, the 3 or four colored vacume hoses on the fender wall should not be disturbed. (one of them goes to the EGR valve, so you know which group I'm talking about). One more thing, in the area below the first plug on that side (nearest to front of engine to be more clear). there is a black rubber vacume hose that will be in your way as you remove that plug. You can unplug it from the top of the vacume cylinder on the top and just replace when you are done. I also bet that on the one in the rear you will find more carbon build up than any of the others. I'm told this is normal for these engines..?
I assume you are putting in copper plugs...right?

[Oracle]

yup copper plugs :)

we managed to snap two plugs lol, got them out ok tho.

I didnt have a gap adjuster tho, so I havent been able to gap them to 0.55 like everyone has reccomended, the car still sounds sweet tho

[Dereck]

yup copper plugs :)

we managed to snap two plugs lol, got them out ok tho.

I didnt have a gap adjuster tho, so I havent been able to gap them to 0.55 like everyone has reccomended, the car still sounds sweet tho

Hi Oracle

Don't set the plugs to .055" set them to .048" - .052" (I set mine to the lower end of the scale) and forget all about them for 30,000 miles.

Regards

Dereck

[Oracle]

well I hope the way they came stock will be ok for now (im not running the car until i change the oil anyway)

but how come some people advise to change the gap to .55?

what is the difference?

[Dereck]

)

but how come some people advise to change the gap to .55?

what is the difference?

Hi Oracle

I don't know :confused:

If you are running a high power ignition system that can handle a wide plug gap then that's all well and good, a fatter longer, juicier spark is much better for starting and maintaining combustion, but if you are running a stock ignition system then a wider gap is no good, all you are doing is stressing the ignition system possibly ending up with a mis-fire (especiallly under load) and it also means you will be pulling the plugs earlier because instead of having 6 or 8 thou of wear tolerence you have 3 thou.

Regards

Dereck

[Oracle]

fair enough, i changed the spark plug leads at the same time so hopefully they will last the length of ownership

slowly but surely the car is getting ready for the rally

[Elemino]

The .55 was for people that upgraded to the MSD ignition coil ($50~$60 USD) and wires ($60~$70 USD) and wanted to take advantage of the stronger spark.

[Sixlitre]

The .55 was for people that upgraded to the MSD ignition coil ($50~$60 USD) and wires ($60~$70 USD) and wanted to take advantage of the stronger spark.

Exactly

if you don't have REALLY good plug wires (MSD, Ford Racing, Taylor SpiroPros,etc) and the hotter coil, the benefits are dubious at best.

The timing bump, however, is not.

Back to the tough job of passenger's side plug changing (okay driver's side for you Brits). I find removing this;

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/232491/fullsize/img_0102.jpg (http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/media/232491_1)

makes it so much easier.

Sixlitre

[Oracle]

yeah I wasnt too sure what I could and couldnt remove without destroying something :)

[87 town]

yeah I wasnt too sure what I could and couldnt remove without destroying something :)


I just worked around "that part" and unplugged the vacume hose at the top to get it out of the way. My arms are also not that wide, so I am able to manuever pretty well.
The plug gap... the plugs should have come out of the box at (approx) .050, which is fine and probably where you are at. To pull the plugs and reset .02 wider or less wouldn't make any sense at this point. (especially with all the trouble you had chaning them in the first place). I went to .052 myself cuz the people on the site were saying to set anywhere from .048 to .055 Then after talking to a street rod shop tech, he suggested .052 I am using MSD wires and coil also but didn't get into the full ignition set up with MSD to benefit from the even wider gap.
Anyhow, I agree with Dereck at .048 to .052 for our set up.
Are you replacing your distributor cap and rotor also? I would suggest it. Under $20. for the parts and an easy change and you will then have a complete tune up.

[Oracle]

im going to check the distributer tomorrow whilst I wait for the oil to drain and go from there

[87 town]

im going to check the distributer tomorrow whilst I wait for the oil to drain and go from there

I'm not sure how much you know already...but "just in case" you don't know how to check/change the rotor and distributor cap.....

Unclip the 2 clips on the cap and unplug the coil wire in the center so you can remove the cap and have room to turn it sideways to look inside. Look up to inner circle where the metal contacts are. They should be fairly smooth and clean along with the contact right in the center inside the cap. If they are very blackened or worn/corroded, i would replace the cap. These contact points are where the rotor hits as it spins.
The rotor just lifts straight up and out and it sits in the center of the distributor (no tools needed), check the round metal contact at the top of the rotor for wear/carbon/corrosion and also run your finger along the edge that makes contact with the contacts inside the cap and it should be smooth and fairly clean. (it won't be perfectly smooth though unless it is brand new) . Also, there should be some decent spring tension on the top of the rotor when you press down on it with your finger. A new rotor only cost a few american dollars. Also, on the distributor cap you can inspect the towers where the lead wires plug into for any corrosion/wear. The cap is roughy 10 dollars. Easy to replace, just only pull one wire at a time as you install into the new cap from the old one. Hairline cracks in the cap is something else you want to look for, but many times, they are very hard to see. If you change the cap you want to put some dielectic grease on the new towers and maybe a bit in the wire end (i usually poke some into the wire boots with a thin screwdriver).
For me, whenever I put new plugs in I "always" replace the cap and rotor so you are assured full benefit of the new plugs and wires.

[joedogg]

Hey heres a question on the subject of distributors. If you change the cap/rotor do you have to make sure its still pointing exactly where it was when you opened the distributor in the first place? or does this not matter?

[87 town]

Hey heres a question on the subject of distributors. If you change the cap/rotor do you have to make sure its still pointing exactly where it was when you opened the distributor in the first place? or does this not matter?

It doesnt matter cuz the rotor will only fit in "one way/direction" anyhow and besides this it won't be moving position anyhow, cuz you won't be starting the car without the rotor in there anyhow.
On your new cap though, take notice of which way the (1) mark imprinted into the dist cap is and put the new cap in the same way.

[Mostwanted19]

lol i dont believe all that k&n air filter stuff i dont think it would make much of a diffrence in power or fuel economy. I just buy the local parts store brand for 5 bucks it's basicly a fram paper filter with the stores logo on the box.

[Sixlitre]

lol i dont believe all that k&n air filter stuff i dont think it would make much of a diffrence in power or fuel economy. I just buy the local parts store brand for 5 bucks it's basicly a fram paper filter with the stores logo on the box.

That's cause you're a 4.6 !

It makes a serious difference (and there are no MAF risks) on a 5.0 litre, I'm here to tell you.

Three days in a row last Summer I drove the same trip out to a junkyard and back. Sunny with no wind at all on any of the days, at 59 mph, cruise set.

The second day, before leaving, I grabbed the 4 year old, dirty drop-in K&N outta my Bronco (also a 5.0 litre) and slapped it into the 90' TC.

That day AND the next I got an extra 2 mpg at cruise than the first day. I also have a much more free flowing exhaust than most Town Cars so I can really tell the performance boost too.

I've run K&Ns on many of the vehicles (though not all) that I've owned and I can always feel the difference.

This time I got the mileage increase figures to prove it. I KNEW it made a difference with the Bronco, but at 20 mpg it never showed as a measureable mpg. On the Town Car, at well over 30 mpg, it finally showed.

All this proves, to me, is that their claim of 10% fuel savings is a little optomistic IMO. According to my test it was closer to 6%, but even if it was only 3%, who's argueing ? Even a 3% gain is worth going after IMO, with today's gas prices.

Sixlitre

[89TCSignature]

Just putting this out there...My last car was a 91 chevy lumina that had 170,000 miles on it but it ran just fine and I had no problems with it. After about a years worth of driving this car I put in a K&N filter, and the very next day after driving for about 20 miles the valve stem snapped and put a hole through my piston and destroyed the cylinder head. Im not saying its K&N fault but its kind of strange that would happen 20 miles after swapping the airfilter. It also could of easily of been because of lack of maintence because I bought it for a pretty cheap price.


Yeah.. I had a '91 Lumina Euro 3.1, blew a rod the same day I replaced the original plug wires. I pushed that car real hard in '99 (Was 19, and stupid!) Never going back to Chevy again, or a FWD car!

PS My sis had a '86 Cavalier RS w/ the 2.8, same crap happened. Somehow, her friend managed to do 65mph in 2nd. Had an '89 Olds cutlass 2.8 w/ 90k. More proof GM is nothing, but general maladies.

Mike

[Sixlitre]

More proof GM is nothing, but general maladies.

Mike

and pi$$ poor engineering

GM has singlehandedly grown the aftermarket, who respond with band-aid cures to address inferior initial factory engineering, often times better than the GM engineers (who somehow still draw paychecks).

Sixlitre

[Ivan D.]

and pi$$ poor engineering

GM has singlehandedly grown the aftermarket, who respond with band-aid cures to address inferior initial factory engineering, often times better than the GM engineers (who somehow still draw paychecks).


Rule goes like this: if a not-so-good design saves $0.05 per vehicle over another (better) design, and doesn't cause problems within the warranty period, and will not be likely a reason for lawsuit in the longer run -> it goes in the vehicle, whether engineers like it or not (and they usually don't).

[Elemino]

Which is what makes certain European cars better than our American products. Some say Mercedes at one time cared nothing about price but instead how good it was engineered and what it does. Then they changed focus on saving money and introduced todays problematic vehicles. I've never been a fan of Mercedes, but I can tell you now I definately will not buy one. The new ones have too many problems plus that whole deal with the guy spending $1.7 Million for a Mercedes and they refused him warranty work after it broke down 10 blocks from the dealership.

Bottom line.. if you build for price and not for quality.. your product will have problems. No if, ands, or buts about it.

[Sixlitre]

Which is what makes certain European cars better than our American products. Some say Mercedes at one time cared nothing about price but instead how good it was engineered and what it does. Then they changed focus on saving money and introduced todays problematic vehicles. I've never been a fan of Mercedes, but I can tell you now I definately will not buy one. The new ones have too many problems plus that whole deal with the guy spending $1.7 Million for a Mercedes and they refused him warranty work after it broke down 10 blocks from the dealership.

Bottom line.. if you build for price and not for quality.. your product will have problems. No if, ands, or buts about it.

I agree

The attraction to owning RWD Mopars, for me, was the ability to add back in the older, better quality, components the factories dropped as they tightened the budgets.

By the time I was finished, my 87' Fifth Avenue, was basically a 1971 Road Runner mechanically and almost everything was bolt-on.

Sixlitre

[Dereck]

Hi Guys

This thread seems to have lost its way some what, so I rekon we should call time on it.

Regards

Dereck