Power adders.

[chefdizzle]

I was looking through the "Power Tour" pics the other night and saw a few TC's with a blower setup. When I did a search online and on this forum, nothing came up. Is there not a blower setup kit that's available for the TC's? Would I have to adapt a foxbody mustang blower setup to fit on the TC or is it a "plug and play" type of deal?

[JoshMcMadMac]

You probably will have to work up a Mustang setup. You could always go turbo, and pipe it yourself. ;)

[Elemino]

I've heard the low compression of these engines is almost perfect for a charger... if you can find one and actually bolt it up.

[Ivan D.]

Any Mustang 5.0 kit will work in a Townie with some modifications, problem is the bottom end won't hold up to the blower's blowing - whe have cats internals, while Mustangs and Mark VIIs get the good forged stuff. If you want forced induction in your car then switch to Mustang engine parts - heads you will need for sure, forged pistons too, proably lots more.

[pro-five-oh]

Most people say the non-HO motors have forged pistons...I donno.

You're better off doing the 5.0HO conversion first and saving up more $$$ for a blower later. The cam and heads are so lousy on these cars, only a whipplecharger works in their powerband...and even then, its a lot of money for not enough gains.

[Ivan D.]

Most people say the non-HO motors have forged pistons...I donno.

You're better off doing the 5.0HO conversion first and saving up more $$$ for a blower later. The cam and heads are so lousy on these cars, only a whipplecharger works in their powerband...and even then, its a lot of money for not enough gains.
About the pistons - I wish that was the case. I'll talk to a friend who knows a lot about those engines tomorrow, see what he has to say about the forged internals. As for the blower... won't a turbo work better then?

[lairdt]

KennyBell has a bolt on kit for the non-HO engines...

[JoshMcMadMac]

...As for the blower... won't a turbo work better then?

It can be argued either way, but I tend to think a turbo is the way to go. Unless you go KB, then you're getting great low end. That comes at a premium price, though.

[Elemino]

I don't know about the forged parts, but my car actually had a roller timing chain on it before I got to it. I thought I'd be changing out the other type to a roller, and I just ended up replacing what was already there with a newer one. There could be a lot more shared HO parts. Some have said the late model Town Cars even had roller lifters. That would be nice to find out if I did. :D

[OVERKILL]

1. They have cast pistons.
2. The HO's, 87-92 1/2 have small-dish TRW forged pistons with 4 valve reliefs.
3. The 86 HO's have completely flat-top TRW forgings.
4. The late 92/93 HO's have hypereutectic pistons.
5. They all have forged I-beam rods and cast cranks.
6. They all have roller-capable blocks. I do not know if the TC's are all roller or not. I am hoping mine is, but I do have a spare spider tray and dog-bones, as well as roller lifters "just in case".
7. The HO's were all roller, with similar cam specs. 87 and 88 had the most agressive camshaft. The Mass-air cams were slightly milder (89-93).

In regards to power-adders, well, the HO blocks definitely have us beat piston-wise (up to 92 1/2), other than that, everything else is pretty much the same, save firing order due to the different camshaft and the slight variations in the intakes.

[pro-five-oh]

6. They all have roller-capable blocks. I do not know if the TC's are all roller or not. I am hoping mine is, but I do have a spare spider tray and dog-bones, as well as roller lifters "just in case".
7. The HO's were all roller, with similar cam specs. 87 and 88 had the most agressive camshaft. The Mass-air cams were slightly milder (89-93).

All SEFI (1986-up) 5.0s are roller cam motors, saw that for myself when I converted my 1988 Cougar to 5.0HO.

Thanks you guys for the correction on pistons. I swear one of my friends had a junkyard Crown Vic 5.0 that he sprayed...and it held power like a forged motor.

[Ivan D.]

Hey Pro, what setup did your buddy use for that (which blower and how many psi of boost)?

[Four Eyed Stangs]

Is this what you guys are calling a flat top?

These are in my '88 TC.

There is clearly a slight dish to them.

The gray stuff is spray on grease to protect the exposed surfaces.

http://members.cox.net/aztowncar/piston.jpg

[OVERKILL]

Is this what you guys are calling a flat top?

These are in my '88 TC.

There is clearly a slight dish to them.

The gray stuff is spray on grease to protect the exposed surfaces.

http://members.cox.net/aztowncar/piston.jpg

No, a flat-top has a completely flat top, hence the name.

[Desert Stallion]

All SEFI (1986-up) 5.0s are roller cam motors, saw that for myself when I converted my 1988 Cougar to 5.0HO.

Ummmm, truck motors didn't go roller until the early 90's, '92-'93 I think was the conversion time frame. I thought Panther cars never got the roller motor because they went straight to the 4.6L in '91?

Also, though '85 was the first year the roller cams were out in the 5.0HO, the oddball 5.0HO CFI motors in the automatic trans cars were still flat tappet, though they used the updated block which can be converted to use a roller cam with the addition of some drilled and tapped holes for the dogbone retainers.

This is true of all 5.0L blocks from that time frame on, whether the motor was equipped with a roller cam or not, just a couple holes from your local machine shop and you've got a block ready for a roller cam setup.

Overkill, I don't know about them forged I-beam rods... stock rods are typically considered one if not THE weakest link in the stock rotating assembly, at least without going through and having them shot-peened, torched, frozen, and blessed with Holy water and whatever else you can do to a rod to make it more durable.

Pro, FWIW there's a local guy who's run nitrous on his hyper-piston motor for a looonnnng time without blowing it up. Just run a conservative tune and don't get crazy and it's amazing how well things don't break.

It's definately bed time now... :yawn:

[OVERKILL]

Ummmm, truck motors didn't go roller until the early 90's, '92-'93 I think was the conversion time frame.

True, but he said SEFI motors, which the trucks were not, they were batch-fire.

I thought Panther cars never got the roller motor because they went straight to the 4.6L in '91?

I was pretty sure they were roller. I will know for sure shortly.

Also, though '85 was the first year the roller cams were out in the 5.0HO, the oddball 5.0HO CFI motors in the automatic trans cars were still flat tappet, though they used the updated block which can be converted to use a roller cam with the addition of some drilled and tapped holes for the dogbone retainers.

Correct about the drill and tap, but this is only typical of the VERY early blocks, as most of the later blocks already have them drilled and tapped.



Overkill, I don't know about them forged I-beam rods... stock rods are typically considered one if not THE weakest link in the stock rotating assembly, at least without going through and having them shot-peened, torched, frozen, and blessed with Holy water and whatever else you can do to a rod to make it more durable.

Not if they are the same rods from the 'stang. IF, and this is a big IF, they are the same rods from the Mustang, then they are indeed forged I-beam, and, are stronger than the block. I know that in "The Mustang world", which I am most definitely a part of, the biggest worry we have (stock-block 302 boys) is the block splitting when you reach the ~500RWHP mark.

Pro, FWIW there's a local guy who's run nitrous on his hyper-piston motor for a looonnnng time without blowing it up. Just run a conservative tune and don't get crazy and it's amazing how well things don't break.

It's definately bed time now... :yawn:

Yeah, a buddy of mine's dad runs a 125-shot on the a hypereutectic pistoned 350 in his S10. Holds up just fine. Its detonation that kills them, not boost or spray. They pistons will literally shatter.

[Elemino]

All I know is my Dad's 87 Crown Vic had the Flats, not roller lifters. It also had the link type timing chain, not a roller timing chain. I wish I could win the lotto, because I'd have my car stripped down to the bare metal and nicely customized with some class. The only thing not so classy would be the nice 302 stroked 347 i'd have put in. But I'd still do everything in my power to make sure it still ran quiet even with all of its new found power. :)

I wouldn't need a super charger then!

[Desert Stallion]

Not if they are the same rods from the 'stang. IF, and this is a big IF, they are the same rods from the Mustang, then they are indeed forged I-beam, and, are stronger than the block. I know that in "The Mustang world", which I am most definitely a part of, the biggest worry we have (stock-block 302 boys) is the block splitting when you reach the ~500RWHP mark.


Man, like I said stock rods have always been the weak points in every motor I've seen come apart. The stock crank will hold longer than the stock rods will, which is far short of the stock forged slugs or the stock block. Esepcially if the motor is being spun much into the 6k range or is using forced induction of some kind.

That's why you see a lot of cheap performance rebuilds using the stock crank with some sort of aftermarket I-beam rod and stock forged pistons (or whatever oversize due to required machining of the block), and even then it's conservatively limited at around 400HP and 6k RPM's.

Can they survive past that? Sure, but for how long and how reliably?

Then again, stock Ford transmissions will give up the ghost before the motor does, so what's the worry?

[OVERKILL]

Man, like I said stock rods have always been the weak points in every motor I've seen come apart. The stock crank will hold longer than the stock rods will, which is far short of the stock forged slugs or the stock block. Esepcially if the motor is being spun much into the 6k range or is using forced induction of some kind.

That's why you see a lot of cheap performance rebuilds using the stock crank with some sort of aftermarket I-beam rod and stock forged pistons (or whatever oversize due to required machining of the block), and even then it's conservatively limited at around 400HP and 6k RPM's.

Can they survive past that? Sure, but for how long and how reliably?

Then again, stock Ford transmissions will give up the ghost before the motor does, so what's the worry?

Well, the engine I am referring to in particular is the 87-mid 92 roller engines with the TRW forged pistons, cast crank, factory forged rods and the thin-wall block that will only hold ~500RWHP before it splits in half, and even then........ its on borrowed time how long it lasts. This is from THOUSANDS of accounts of this that have occurred via the guys on the Corral. In the HO engines, its the block that is the weakest link.

That's why I was/am wondering if the non-HO motors use the same rods......

[Desert Stallion]

Ah, from Corral. It makes sense now. I thought that you worked in a shop that built these cars and had personal experience with them... Kinda like when I mentioned the stock rods being weak was because I did work and still occasionally moonlight in a performance shop that sees lots of broke motors come in to be built up, and the standard recipe for a cheap performance motor, again depending on condition of stock parts, is turned stock crank, aftermarket I-beam rods, and stock forged slugs if possible.

Who knows. There was an article in one of the Mustang rags a ways back that some guy was using a stock rotating assembly and making 600 horsepower, with the stock block. :eek:

But, again, I didn't see it, and I doubt that it'll last too long, but hey it runs for now and that's all that matters.

[OVERKILL]

Oh, you want REAL world, OK.

My buddy Nick, we just took apart his engine a few months ago. Stock rotating assembly, stock block.

Its been eating a 150-shot for the last 4 years straight. It had over 400,000Km on it. He had a pile of nitrous back-fires last year, burnt a valve (ended up running one of my old E7's in place of his one with the burnt valve) and continued to spray it for the rest of the season. He sprays it on the street, on the track, pretty much anywhere he can when he has something in the bottle. After the rash of back-fires (related to a mouse eating some of his injector wiring) he lost about 15lbs of oil pressure. SO, it was time for a rebuild.

Brent.

Brent has a 91 coupe that has had over 2,000 bottles through it. 295,000Km on the stock rotating assembly, but with upgraded heads, cam, intake. TFS TW heads, Pro Products Edelbrock knock-off intake, and a Comp XE268HR camshaft. It was making 395RWHP for three or four years with the upgraded induction package before eating an intake gasket and killing all the bearings. Engine was freshened, stock rods went back in, along with stock pistons (engine didn't need to be over-bored amazingly) and crank, he ditched the nitrous and now runs an S-Trim pumping out 14lbs of boost and puts down 525RWHP for the last two years.

Steve.

Steve has a 1989 coupe, AFR 185 heads, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, Comp XE274HR camshaft and an S-Trim. He runs a stock crank, with stock rods (ARP hardware, same with Brent) and DSS Pro-lite pistons, also topped with an S-Trim. this is the car's first year out with the new pistons and heads on it, and makes 534RWHP/492RWTQ. Prior to that, the engine had my heads on it (I bought them from him) and the same intake and a Crane 2031 camshaft, A-Trim and a 50-shot. Car put out 398RWHP for two years that way, getting driven to the track and back every time there was an event. Prior to that, the car was a stock-headed nitrous motor.

George.

George HAD an S-trimmed stocker for about two years that made 400RWHP with 18lbs of boost. Now, he's upgraded to a Mexican block and a 347. His old motor is still going as a Nitrous motor in another buddy's car.

My car last year only made 270RWHP, so its not a good example.

This year, with the custom cam, should make over 300RWHP, but still, not much stress on the rotating assembly.

Those enough examples for you?

I've got more. A guy I know out of Toronto recently split his stock block right up the front behind the timing cover making 490RWHP because he detonated it to hell repeatedly and shifted it too high. The stock rods didn't let go, the block did.

Nick works in a machine shop. The owner, and engine builder always teases Nick about how weak the roller 302's are (he's a Chevy guy) and how the blocks split if you rev them due to the 50oz external balance and thin casting.

I simply used the Corral as a point of reference because there are literally THOUSANDS of stories that are similar to the above there. Real world, Internet, BS, it doesn't matter. Obviously my experience and what professional engine builders tells me is wrong, and that thin-walled cast block is stronger than the forged rods with their crappy hardware.

I'm not saying the rods are "strong" in comparison to aftermarket ones, but, in my experience, and from what I've observed and been told, they are still stronger than the block.

Now, we change blocks to the early-style.....well, then that's a completely different ball-game.

[Desert Stallion]

Don't go gettin' yer panties in a bind. All I'm sayin' is go to FFW, or any NMRA event, and check out all competitors there using stock blocks, there's lots of 'em, and ask 'em if they're still using stock rods or not, stroker motors not included.

[gadget73]

My 1986 Townie's original engine had roller lifters. I know this for fact because I saw it when I had the intake off. All 1985 and later blocks are roller compatible, however the 1985 block did not use a roller cam, nor did it have the holes tapped in the lifter galley for the retainer spider. A simple drill and tap operation is all thats needed to make an 85 engine roller ready. The truck engine blocks may or may not have roller lifters, but the blocks should be capable of the roller cam and lifter installation.

Also, regarding the rod and crank failure points, with the lopo engines its the #3 main bearing that dies because of the particular firing order in use. The shortblock is identical with an HO and a non-HO with the exception of the pistons and camshaft, both of which are not a serious consideration since in a really all-out performance build you'd replace them anyway, probably along with the rest of the rotating assembly.

Also, the heads on the lopo motor don't flow as well and have larger chambers for low compression. With port work they can be made quite decent in regards to flow but the compression will still be lower than an HO head. This might be better suited for a turbo or super setup.

[Desert Stallion]

Carb'd HO motors in '85 had roller cams. That's how Ford broke the 200HP mark for the first time since the muscle car era with the 302. '85 CFI HO and other non-HO motors had flat tappet cams.

I am wowed that your Townie had a roller cam in '86. If that's factory, well, that's the first time I've seen that. How did you see the roller portion of the lifter with just the intake off? Does the plenum have a HO placcard, or have you run the VIN to see if it's a factory option or not? Single exhaust or dual from the factory? Man, gots me all kinds of excited. I didn't think Panther's had HO motors, except some SSP cars.

[OVERKILL]

I'll be able to tell you if mine is factory roller or not shortly.

E7's, stock 87 GT camshaft, 87 upper plenum and 60mm TB going on the 'old TC.

I'm the 3rd owner, dad bought it when it was a year old.

[Ivan D.]

Desert Stallion, no SEFI-equipped Panther had an HO engine out of the factory, except for maybe those weird crossover models like the Dearborn Police Interceptor Town Cars, and even with them it's nothing but a rumor. Gadget's car is MPFI, so it should indeed be a roller cam.

[gadget73]

Carb'd HO motors in '85 had roller cams. That's how Ford broke the 200HP mark for the first time since the muscle car era with the 302. '85 CFI HO and other non-HO motors had flat tappet cams.

I am wowed that your Townie had a roller cam in '86. If that's factory, well, that's the first time I've seen that. How did you see the roller portion of the lifter with just the intake off? Does the plenum have a HO placcard, or have you run the VIN to see if it's a factory option or not? Single exhaust or dual from the factory? Man, gots me all kinds of excited. I didn't think Panther's had HO motors, except some SSP cars.

Towncars did not come with an HO engine. It was the original motor. My car is a tow package car that came from the factory with a 3.55 K code rear, big rear drums, and dual exhaust. I had the lower intake removed, and I pulled the spider and one of the retainers so I could check the roller tip for wear, so thats why I know it was a roller motor. I also used the distributor from that motor in my 88 HO engine without destroying the cam gear.