HO Conversion running REALLY rich

[OVERKILL]

OK, so, the car (http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?p=6438432#) seems to roll over fine now that I got the timing thing sorted out, BUT, its running INSANELY rich, and I don't know why.

I figured it might be MAP sensor related, SO, I ran a vacuum line directly from one of the whopping 4 ports on the Explorer intake to the MAP sensor. Well, the car would idle after that at least, but not very well and it eventually stalled out after like 10 minutes.

Now, I am running the stock TC 55mm TB on it for now (I know, its tiny) with a known good TPS on it, EGR hooked up, but the coolant (http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?p=6438432#) lines to the EGR are bipassed because, again, the Explorer intake lacks that provision.

The ECM I am using is a DX3 (number: E7SF-12A650-X1D) out of a Lincoln Mark VII LSC so, its an HO car with SD, which should translate to perfect running on the TC.

IF necessary, I can get the old ECM out of my '87 GT to test with if that sounds like a wise idea, which, at this point, to ME it does.

I am also having an issue getting the stock manifolds to seal up to the E7's, which makes it pretty fumy underneath the hood when its running, but its also telling me that she's REALLY rich.

I can't find my code reader ATM, which I actively searching for, as it might give me some greater insight into just what might be the case.

As soon as you start giving it rev's, it runs great, but I can't just sit there and feather it at 1,500RPM all the time, given that its an automatic car.

I know this is a rather bizarre situation, but, I figured I'd ask for input anyways, in case, in my haste, I've overlooked something stupid.

-Chris

[87 town]

OK, so, the car (http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?p=6438432#) seems to roll over fine now that I got the timing thing sorted out, BUT, its running INSANELY rich, and I don't know why.

I figured it might be MAP sensor related, SO, I ran a vacuum line directly from one of the whopping 4 ports on the Explorer intake to the MAP sensor. Well, the car would idle after that at least, but not very well and it eventually stalled out after like 10 minutes.

Now, I am running the stock TC 55mm TB on it for now (I know, its tiny) with a known good TPS on it, EGR hooked up, but the coolant (http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?p=6438432#) lines to the EGR are bipassed because, again, the Explorer intake lacks that provision.

The ECM I am using is a DX3 (number: E7SF-12A650-X1D) out of a Lincoln Mark VII LSC so, its an HO car with SD, which should translate to perfect running on the TC.

IF necessary, I can get the old ECM out of my '87 GT to test with if that sounds like a wise idea, which, at this point, to ME it does.

I am also having an issue getting the stock manifolds to seal up to the E7's, which makes it pretty fumy underneath the hood when its running, but its also telling me that she's REALLY rich.

I can't find my code reader ATM, which I actively searching for, as it might give me some greater insight into just what might be the case.

As soon as you start giving it rev's, it runs great, but I can't just sit there and feather it at 1,500RPM all the time, given that its an automatic car.

I know this is a rather bizarre situation, but, I figured I'd ask for input anyways, in case, in my haste, I've overlooked something stupid.

-Chris

My first thoughts bring me to "spark issue" causing richness. If your timing is set right, my only next thought is the spark plugs gap? stock gap should be at .048 to .050 Is it possible they may be gapped too wide currently and causing richness. Also, is your ignition coil tower nice and clean. Maybe not getting proper constant spark which could cause hesitations...
just a couple of outside thoughts...

[Tman70]

I'm sure you checked that the spark plug firing order was correct, but it sounds like what I did on my first attempt. I forgot to change the injector firing order. Wouldn't idle hardly, but over 1000 rpm, ran well. BTW...the DX3 is listed for an 87 Mark 7 or Mustang, so it should work fine.

[Red91SiT]

OK, so, the car (http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?p=6438432#) seems to roll over fine now that I got the timing thing sorted out, BUT, its running INSANELY rich, and I don't know why...

... I am also having an issue getting the stock manifolds to seal up to the E7's, which makes it pretty fumy underneath the hood when its running, but its also telling me that she's REALLY rich.

I can't find my code reader ATM, which I actively searching for, as it might give me some greater insight into just what might be the case.

...

-Chris


If you have exhaust manifold leak, it could be letting oxyegen into the exhaust system, so the o2 sensors detect excessive amounts of oxyegen indicating a lean condition and add fuel, as the rpm's increase, so would the exhaust flow-pressure, letting less oxyegen into the exhaust.

Reading your codes shoudnt' require a code reader, just a few wires and a multi-meter. Doing this could save considerable amount of time.

[OVERKILL]

I'm sure you checked that the spark plug firing order was correct, but it sounds like what I did on my first attempt. I forgot to change the injector firing order. Wouldn't idle hardly, but over 1000 rpm, ran well. BTW...the DX3 is listed for an 87 Mark 7 or Mustang, so it should work fine.

Spark plug firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8, the HO firing order.

Injector order is how the injector harness lays, because the ECM dictates which cylinder fires when, not the harness.............The ECM should be saying the same order as the spark plugs above.

I know the DX3 is supposed to be an LSC ECM, because I took it out of one at the wreckers...........assuming nothing is wrong with it...........

[OVERKILL]

If you have exhaust manifold leak, it could be letting oxyegen into the exhaust system, so the o2 sensors detect excessive amounts of oxyegen indicating a lean condition and add fuel, as the rpm's increase, so would the exhaust flow-pressure, letting less oxyegen into the exhaust.

Reading your codes shoudnt' require a code reader, just a few wires and a multi-meter. Doing this could save considerable amount of time.

Its not a big leak, and, the car doesn't even get warmed up enough to be running off the O2's and its pig rich, the entire upper and lower intake REEK of gasoline (I have the upper off right now), its VERY odd.

I created a vacuum leak and was able to get the car to idle. Not all that well, but it was idling.....................

I've currently got the upper off, sitting in the basement beside the stock upper and have got out my tap and die set. Though, it looks like I need to find like 5/8ths tap or whatever size the vacuum fittings are on the stock thread-in vacuum tubes off the stock intake. I had Y's galore setup, and it was not a pretty site.

I'll let you guys know when I've got more to share, otherwise, keep the suggestions coming, your input is greatly appreciated and I'd LIKE to get my daily driver going again here, so it can be daily driven :)

[OVERKILL]

My first thoughts bring me to "spark issue" causing richness. If your timing is set right, my only next thought is the spark plugs gap? stock gap should be at .048 to .050 Is it possible they may be gapped too wide currently and causing richness. Also, is your ignition coil tower nice and clean. Maybe not getting proper constant spark which could cause hesitations...
just a couple of outside thoughts...

MSD coil, Accel 300+ race wires and new FMS cap and rotor. The car was running peachy-keen before the swap with these components. The timing light seems to miss a blink at times, but I'm thinking it might just be the thick insulation on the plug wires causing that issue, not an actual mis-fire, though anything is possible............

[gadget73]

How much vacuum does it pull at idle? If its not 17" or more, it'll run fat. Is your coolant temp sensor connected and working properly? If not, it defaults to open circuit usually, which also makes the fuel mix really rich. Bad or disconnected O2 sensors could do this, as could excessively leaky exhaust. You should be able to get the stock manifolds to mate up to the E7 heads without issue. The exhaust ports aren't changed from an E6 (the stock) head. The only real difference is in the chamber area. Unless the surface where the exhaust manifold sits is messed up, I'd say maybe the manifolds are warped or cracked. If all else fails, try double exhaust gaskets.

Oh, did you plug off the thermactor pipes on the back of the head, or is that system plumbed in? Is it working properly? If the diverter valve isn't diverting, it will pump excessive amounts of air into the exhaust when its not supposed to, and that might make the ECM fatten the mix up too.

Might also not be a bad idea to check the plugs. If one is wet or black, you may have one leaky injector. Its been known to happen. Go to the junkyard and steal a set from a 4.6L car. They're easy to get to and they're 19 lb injectors.

[OVERKILL]

I will put a vacuum gauge on it tomorrow, after I get the intake plumbed correctly with the vacuum fittings.

I have the stock Mustang gaskets in there right now, but I noticed on the E6's, there are no gaskets, so I will perhaps try removing the gasket completely and just mating the manifold to the head.

The polution pump is not hooked up ATM.........Only have the one belt on, because we were testing stuff, makes it easier to see the balancer with only the one belt on.

I could start pulling plugs, perhaps will try that tomorrow. The injectors have been sitting for two years, so, anything is possible.

The ECT is definitely hooked up. I broke the ground off to the O2 harness and hooked it up in a way I'm not satisfied with, so, with the upper intake off right now, I'm going to take the opportunity to fix that.

Thanks for the suggestions!

-Chris

[pro-five-oh]

I had the same problem when I converted my 88 Cougar to HO. Turns out it was a bad MAP sensor that I bought from Autozone. (that's when I learned to run away from WELLS products) I put the 88 Cougar MAP sensor back on and the car ran fine.


Fix the O2 ground problem you mentioned, seal the manifolds up (they should fit on E7s) and try again. Disconnect the battery to clear the computer. Run it again and if its still off, pull some codes with a scanner.

[OVERKILL]

I had the same problem when I converted my 88 Cougar to HO. Turns out it was a bad MAP sensor that I bought from Autozone. (that's when I learned to run away from WELLS products) I put the 88 Cougar MAP sensor back on and the car ran fine.


Fix the O2 ground problem you mentioned, seal the manifolds up (they should fit on E7s) and try again. Disconnect the battery to clear the computer. Run it again and if its still off, pull some codes with a scanner.

I'm using the stock TC MAP sensor right now, maybe I'll borrown the one off the Capri or something to test with................

I'll fix the ground ASAP as well, definitely before I put the upper back on.

[OVERKILL]

Well, this is what rushing does.

The 50mm TB/EGR from the TC does not line up well with the 70mm opening in the Explorer intake, and, in my haste, I used RTV instead of actual gaskets.

Well, I have the upper off and apart and it was sucking in massive quantities of exhaust. I'm assuming that was the problem.

SO, I've got an actual GASKET in there now, I don't have the time to modify the HO TB and spacer to work right now, so I'll put up with the reduction in power that this little beast is going to cost me for now. Hopefully, my wife will get back soon so I can go out and put the upper on and see if I'm right or wrong. I've got it all plumbed for the vacuum fittings from the stock intake now, which is nice, no more Mickey-mouse Tee's or crap like that.

Wish me luck!

-Chris

[OVERKILL]

OK, well, its running smooth now that its not consuming massive quantities of exhaust, but its still not idling worth a crap, I'm thinking its just not getting enough air. Need to work on adjusting the TB a fair bit I think. Do the idle reset procedure. I'll be doing that tomorrow, as the car is a bit too loud to be running at 10:30 at night and the neighbours have already complained about me working on it this late once.

I'll update again tomorrow.

[OVERKILL]

Hmmmm, took it for a drive, its got a LOT more power.

BUT, I have to have the idle set high, because, if its set to where its supposed to, it hunts like crazy and eventually stalls out. Very odd...........Will pull codes again on it tomorrow and see what's up.

Other than that, its got a WICKED top-end now, not like before where, it would rev, stop pulling, continue to rev and then shift. Now, it pulls decent, then, comes onto the cam, and YEEEE HAAAAAAWWWWW and then shifts and pulls and pulls again. It really needs to be able to rev higher now............

[pro-five-oh]

Niiiiice! :)

[87 town]

Hmmmm, took it for a drive, its got a LOT more power.

BUT, I have to have the idle set high, because, if its set to where its supposed to, it hunts like crazy and eventually stalls out. Very odd...........Will pull codes again on it tomorrow and see what's up.

Other than that, its got a WICKED top-end now, not like before where, it would rev, stop pulling, continue to rev and then shift. Now, it pulls decent, then, comes onto the cam, and YEEEE HAAAAAAWWWWW and then shifts and pulls and pulls again. It really needs to be able to rev higher now............

For the bad idle, you may check out the ICM (Idle Contro Motor), if you havent already. just a guess here....

[OVERKILL]

For the bad idle, you may check out the ICM (Idle Contro Motor), if you havent already. just a guess here....

The IAC SHOULD be fine, it was working correctly when it was on the previous intake. What I'm thinking is that I may have baffed an O2 sensor when the car was running rich and the timing was severely retarded. I know the exhaust got glowing hot, which is often enough to kill one.

I'll pull the codes and I have the spares (originals) out of it in the trunk, so I can try them.

-Chris

[OVERKILL]

Forced the car into open loop by unplugging the O2 sensors and it still hunts, just no where near as bad.

The odd part is, it still hunts with the IAC unplugged!!!!!!!!!???????????

VERY odd..............

[Red91SiT]

Forced the car into open loop by unplugging the O2 sensors and it still hunts, just no where near as bad.

The odd part is, it still hunts with the IAC unplugged!!!!!!!!!???????????

VERY odd..............

Sounds like a vacuum leak perhaps?

[OVERKILL]

Sounds like a vacuum leak perhaps?


I don't know, my experience with vacuum leaks is that normally, they present themselves in a continuous manner, IE, a high idle, not a surge, but of course, I could be wrong.

[gadget73]

I was told that the only way to use an Explorer upper on a panther is to obtain the gen1 Lightning EGR spacer. Modded stock ones don't seal properly and it creates a leak that sucks in both air and exhaust. I was told this by a guy who tried it and wasn't able to make it work properly. I'm currently seeking one of these out myself because with the new heads I'll be going Exploder upper intake too.

[OVERKILL]

I was told that the only way to use an Explorer upper on a panther is to obtain the gen1 Lightning EGR spacer. Modded stock ones don't seal properly and it creates a leak that sucks in both air and exhaust. I was told this by a guy who tried it and wasn't able to make it work properly. I'm currently seeking one of these out myself because with the new heads I'll be going Exploder upper intake too.

Well, it SEEMED to seal up, its just CLOSE, that's all, like 1/8th of an inch max sealing area between the EGR spacer and the opening. The HO spacer would seal up much better but that's a lot of work and I don't have the time to screw around with it, given that its my daily driver.

[gadget73]

Could try sticking it on there even without the cables to see what it does. If it solves the problem, you know what it is. How much vacuum are you getting again ?

[OVERKILL]

Could try sticking it on there even without the cables to see what it does. If it solves the problem, you know what it is. How much vacuum are you getting again ?

True enough.

I haven't put a gauge on it yet, I will do that tomorrow.

-Chris

[OVERKILL]

OK, vacuum readings at "idle" (which is a high idle) are a constant fluctuation between 14 and 16 inches. When you FIRST fire it and its not surging yet, it'll pull 16 constant......

I know these readings are a touch low.

[OVERKILL]

OK, well, based on the cylinder balance test results, I replaced all the plugs on the drivers side of the engine and it ran a WHOLE lot better. Replaced #1 and it got even better. I ran out of spare plugs at that point and so just went up to Canadian Tire and bought two packs of the same plugs I am using as spares, which are NGK UR45GP, and they seem to be working wonderfully. As soon as I changed the plugs on the drivers side, the dark hue that the exhaust had disappeared. The car is no longer bucking, and it just seems to have a slight miss now, which I am assuming should be fixed as soon as I change the three remaining plugs.

WOW, go figure.

[Elemino]

Imagine.. the ignition system... the igniting factor.. causing problems... :)

Use NGK copper core plugs, Super Conductor (or equiv.) wires, and a blaster coil and see how well it runs then.

[OVERKILL]

Imagine.. the ignition system... the igniting factor.. causing problems... :)

Use NGK copper core plugs, Super Conductor (or equiv.) wires, and a blaster coil and see how well it runs then.

I have already Accel 300+ Race wires and an MSD blaster coil on there. The plugs were Autolite 25's and they have like 2 hours of run-time on them? But they were SO fouled from the EGR spacer leaking that they were missing all over the place, which of course shows "lean" to the O2's, so the ECM dumps more fuel and then well, you know what happens next.

Anyways, it seems to be cleaning itself out now and is actually drivable.

The POWER difference is INSANE, I cannot get over how much more power the car has. Its not like the Capri, but it literally feels TWICE as fast.

Won't know for sure until it hits the track in the spring though.

-Chris

[87 town]

I have already Accel 300+ Race wires and an MSD blaster coil on there. The plugs were Autolite 25's and they have like 2 hours of run-time on them? But they were SO fouled from the EGR spacer leaking that they were missing all over the place, which of course shows "lean" to the O2's, so the ECM dumps more fuel and then well, you know what happens next.

Anyways, it seems to be cleaning itself out now and is actually drivable.

The POWER difference is INSANE, I cannot get over how much more power the car has. Its not like the Capri, but it literally feels TWICE as fast.

Won't know for sure until it hits the track in the spring though.

-Chris

Plugs are major! I changed mine out this past summer and made the mistake of putting in platinums and car ran "terrible". Put in new copper plugs and now perfect!
Until I figured out it was the plat plugs I replaced just about everything else, like coil, wires, dist cap, rotor, put in additives, messed with the timing and more....Simple $2. each, copper plugs was all she wanted.

[OVERKILL]

The plugs that got fouled are copper. The ones that are in there now are NGK Platinum's, which I think I'll keep in there because they will keep themselves cleaner (Platinum plugs burn hotter) and that is an issue due to all the caked-on crap lining the intake runners right now thanks to the EGR spacer.

Does anybody know if the Crown Vic 351w had a larger TB/EGR than the 302 version? If so, that might be a viable upgrade, I KNOW I'm killing power with the 50mm unit.

[Tman70]

Why not the Mustang HO TB??? You just have to change the lever...

[87 town]

The plugs that got fouled are copper. The ones that are in there now are NGK Platinum's, which I think I'll keep in there because they will keep themselves cleaner (Platinum plugs burn hotter) and that is an issue due to all the caked-on crap lining the intake runners right now thanks to the EGR spacer.

Does anybody know if the Crown Vic 351w had a larger TB/EGR than the 302 version? If so, that might be a viable upgrade, I KNOW I'm killing power with the 50mm unit.

Interesting about the plugs. All I could do is speak from my personal experience. In any event, glad it's working out better for you.

[OVERKILL]

Why not the Mustang HO TB??? You just have to change the lever...

My HO TB that i have has a cut-out for the blade. My Town Car TB has a solid shaft with a "slot" in it for the blade. In order to use the TC shaft in the HO TB, that slot is going to have to be seriously elongated. The EGR spacer also does not seal well (the non-HO one) but its sealed right now, but I am not going to hog a massive amount of material out of it to make it match the HO TB, because I don't think it will seal after that, its just the size of the opening and location of the EGR passage on the Explorer intake that makes this difficult. The HO EGR spacer on the other hand is "notched" underneath to better accomodate the EGR passage style of the Explorer intake but of course lacks the bosses to handle the throttle linkage for the TB setup on the TC.

THAT is why I was wondering about the 351W EGR/TB assembly from the Crown Vic, since I would EXPECT it to be larger, though of course I could be wrong.

[OVERKILL]

Interesting about the plugs. All I could do is speak from my personal experience. In any event, glad it's working out better for you.

Remember though, you are still running E6's, I'm running E7's with more compression and a completely different camshaft. I have never had an issue with Platinum plugs in my Mustang, and I was using the Bosch Platinum +4's in it for 80,000Km.

I don't put Platinums in it now, since its got GT40's, but I did when it had E7's.

At any rate, the car is still "rough" running, but definitely drivable, which it wasn't before I swapped the plugs out. I am thinking its just the crap accumulated from the EGR spacer, it was pretty well caked in the plenum and runners and its full of gas, so its going to cause issue with the engine until its gone. I may try some intake/Combustion chamber cleaner on it applied through the intake later to see if it helps or not, can't really lose trying it at least.

I definitely want to get something done about this TB situation though, as the 1.7 rockers and non-restrictive Explorer intake allow for even better breathing for the E7's, which, although crappy, are a much better breathing head than the E6's, and they are being forced to breathe through a 50mm TB right now :)

[OVERKILL]

OK, just fogged the old girl down with the AC-Delco combustion chamber cleaner to see if I can get rid of all that crap from the EGR spacer, I hope it works!

[Tman70]

You're not using the spacer and other parts from the Mustang? When I did mine, I just used the complete assembly from the upper intake to the TB and turned it around. Everything fit perfect except for the throttle lever. No boring, matching or misalgning.

[OVERKILL]

You're not using the spacer and other parts from the Mustang? When I did mine, I just used the complete assembly from the upper intake to the TB and turned it around. Everything fit perfect except for the throttle lever. No boring, matching or misalgning.

-The throttle bracketry on the Mustang is "backwards", IE, the mounting is on the OTHER side of the EGR spacer, so I am assuming to use it, you'd need to drill and tap it, is that what you did?

-The "boring-out" reference was to using the TC EGR spacer with the HO throttle body, which are obviously different sizes.

-The throttle shaft on the two TB's are different, my HO TB is cut-out where the blade goes, where as my TC shaft is solid with a slot in it for the butterfly, which will need to be elongated to fit the larger butterfly and work in the HO TB.

[gadget73]

My HO TB that i have has a cut-out for the blade. My Town Car TB has a solid shaft with a "slot" in it for the blade.

THAT is why I was wondering about the 351W EGR/TB assembly from the Crown Vic, since I would EXPECT it to be larger, though of course I could be wrong.

351 Vics had a VV 2bbl carb, no EFI parts from them.

Take an air grinder to the shaft on the HO throttle body where the shaft comes through the lever. Grind it down till its smooth and flush with the lever surface, and the lever will pop off the shaft. Do the same with the Townie throttle body. Install the lever from the TC onto the HO throttle body and tack weld it. You can use the same method to use an Explorer 65 mm throttle body. The EGR from a Lightning is 67 mm, and is the only direct fit upgrade from a bored out Panther EGR spacer unless you can manage to source some Aussie 5.0 parts. The throttle cable brackets fit up perfectly to these and they have the right mounting bosses. The Lightning one actually has the mounting bosses for both Mustang style right pointed intakes and Panther style left facing intakes.

[OVERKILL]

351 Vics had a VV 2bbl carb, no EFI parts from them.

Take an air grinder to the shaft on the HO throttle body where the shaft comes through the lever. Grind it down till its smooth and flush with the lever surface, and the lever will pop off the shaft. Do the same with the Townie throttle body. Install the lever from the TC onto the HO throttle body and tack weld it. You can use the same method to use an Explorer 65 mm throttle body. The EGR from a Lightning is 67 mm, and is the only direct fit upgrade from a bored out Panther EGR spacer unless you can manage to source some Aussie 5.0 parts. The throttle cable brackets fit up perfectly to these and they have the right mounting bosses. The Lightning one actually has the mounting bosses for both Mustang style right pointed intakes and Panther style left facing intakes.

Finding one of those is going to be like trying to find a Cobra-R in a wreckers though, its just not happening. I'll take it into the machine shop my buddy works at and maybe let Dean "make" some bosses with his TIG welder on the HO spacer. I'll find another TC TB and perform the mods on it, rather than risk screwing with mine, which is currently in use on the car.

[Tman70]

Ok... Brain cells are working slowly... I did fabricate abrackett out of 1/8" X 1" steel to go around and mount it on the other side. From what I remember, it wasn't a long process andit mounted solid under 2 bolts. When I get back home I'll post a picture.

[gadget73]

Finding one of those is going to be like trying to find a Cobra-R in a wreckers though, its just not happening. I'll take it into the machine shop my buddy works at and maybe let Dean "make" some bosses with his TIG welder on the HO spacer. I'll find another TC TB and perform the mods on it, rather than risk screwing with mine, which is currently in use on the car.

I just bought one off nloc.net, took me a week and a half to locate it, 50 bucks shipped. They're around, just gotta look. They pop up on ebay from time to time, and if you aren't in a rush, its possible to get one for less money than I paid. Lots of the Lightning guys could care less about them as they can upgrade using normal Mustang parts. Its like me with stock lopo parts. That junk goes in the scrap heap. I want stock Mustang leftovers.

[OVERKILL]

OK, I just posted a want-ad on the Corral, hopefully somebody responds.

[Tman70]

Sorry it took so long, but this is the bracket I made for the throttle arms. Very easy to do.

[gadget73]

OK, I just posted a want-ad on the Corral, hopefully somebody responds.

If you're looking for a Lightning part, try nloc.net too, or I might be able to put you in touch with a guy on GMN who offered to sell me his right after I sent out the money order for the one I bought from nloc.net. Once in a while these things appear on ebay and go for cheap if you manage to locate one that has a lousy description or title. Just have to be very careful about what you get. All the time things are marked improperly and its very easy to think you're getting part X and what shows up is part Y because someone didn't know what they were selling and had crappy pics.

[OVERKILL]

If you're looking for a Lightning part, try nloc.net too, or I might be able to put you in touch with a guy on GMN who offered to sell me his right after I sent out the money order for the one I bought from nloc.net. Once in a while these things appear on ebay and go for cheap if you manage to locate one that has a lousy description or title. Just have to be very careful about what you get. All the time things are marked improperly and its very easy to think you're getting part X and what shows up is part Y because someone didn't know what they were selling and had crappy pics.

Yeah, I've got a WTB on nloc.net right now :) If you can put me in touch with that guy, that would be great, thanks a million!

-Chris

[OVERKILL]

OK, so, thanks to Gadget, I've sourced a Lightning EGR spacer, but I'm still, until I swap the TB, stuck with a car that isn't idling right. I've got the throttle screw turned in to allow it to idle high, because, if I try to set stock idle, it will start to hunt and will stall when it goes into gear. It doesn't miss now at idle, only under load (IE, in gear at a stop sign) and only after you've been there 15 seconds or so, it doesn't do it initially.......

GAH! This is SO frustrating! I've tried a different MAP sensor, that didn't help, so I know its not that, I can't FIND any vacuum leaks, though when I hit the brakes, the idle goes up for a second, so I know there is a vacuum issue with my master, but that can't really be helped ATM and it doesn't appear to be leaking constantly and the car was fine when it was non-HO.

O2's maybe? I still haven't tried those. Its 0 degrees (Sixlitre will be able to relate to our lovely Canadian weather) so the motivation to work on this thing in the driveway really isn't there, but I would like a proper running daily driver :)

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! :(

[gadget73]

Are those heads known good? I have pretty much the same running problems with my car, and its running 16" at idle. No leaks on mine either, just leaky valves in the heads. My motor also pumps up a whopping 100 psi compression per cylinder, so its not exactly running right. It runs rich, and does poorly on fuel, but once its wound up a little bit it moves pretty well.

Also, just in case anyone wonders what the actual Lightning EGR spacer looks like, here is mine. On the left you see the two coolant hoses and the two studs that will be used to mount the stock panther throttle bracket. On the left, you see the two studs for the EGR valve and the two bosses that could be used to mount a Mustang bracket to. I have no idea why this thing has both mounting points, unless someone at Ford decided to make a special part for us box 5.0 nuts to use.

[OVERKILL]

Are those heads known good? I have pretty much the same running problems with my car, and its running 16" at idle. No leaks on mine either, just leaky valves in the heads. My motor also pumps up a whopping 100 psi compression per cylinder, so its not exactly running right. It runs rich, and does poorly on fuel, but once its wound up a little bit it moves pretty well.

Also, just in case anyone wonders what the actual Lightning EGR spacer looks like, here is mine. On the left you see the two coolant hoses and the two studs that will be used to mount the stock panther throttle bracket. On the left, you see the two studs for the EGR valve and the two bosses that could be used to mount a Mustang bracket to. I have no idea why this thing has both mounting points, unless someone at Ford decided to make a special part for us box 5.0 nuts to use.


That looks awesome! The heads have like 100Km on them with new valves and springs, I'm pretty sure they are good. I COULD do a compression test............

[OVERKILL]

New injectors.

WOW.

I got a set of the 4-hole ones from a 97 Crown Victoria, and what a difference.

I had the turn the idle screw back down to stock (thank God) and now the car purrs like a kitten.

Funny part is, with the ACT plugged in, the car will run fine for a few minutes and then "hunt" a bit, though it, doesn't stall out, and I can have it plugged in at the stock idle point, which I couldn't before..............BUT, with the ACT unplugged, the car runs like a dream, albeit, I have a check engine light. I'm wondering if things are a touch "polluted" inside from how rich its been running and needs some time running at the right A/F to clean itself out. So, running it with the ACT disconnected for a while and we'll see if she cleans herself out. Its SO nice not having it missing and bucking and having to idle at a million RPM just to run right :)

-Chris

EDIT, and for reference, with the ACT plugged in or unplugged before, it made no difference, car would hunt and die regardless.

[gadget73]

Must have been one of those old injectors gooped up. I've also gotten used injectors from 4.6 cars with fair luck.

I'm guessing ACT = air charge temp ? I always called those the IAT, intake air temp. Yay for the alphabet soup on an EFI motor.

[OVERKILL]

Yeah, I was able to hook it up later tonight though? I'm still having an issue getting it "reeled in" though, because when I set the idle initially, I think it was breathing combustion chamber cleaner from the upper plenum that I had sprayed in there to get some of the exhaust crap out from when the EGR spacer was leaking.

SO, I'm going to re-set it tomorrow.

Wish me luck :)

[gadget73]

Have you tried pulling the sensor and cleaning it off directly? I had issues with mine and had to do that. It was totally loaded up with garbage. I actually replaced it in an effort to fix an idle hunting problem. Between that and a new ECT it solved about 80% of it. The rest of it involved bumping the base idle so it ran at 500 rpm with the IAC unplugged, and not taking it out of gear. It doesn't do the stupid idle garbage as long as its in gear. Take it out, forget it, it runs like poo.

[OVERKILL]

Have you tried pulling the sensor and cleaning it off directly? I had issues with mine and had to do that. It was totally loaded up with garbage. I actually replaced it in an effort to fix an idle hunting problem. Between that and a new ECT it solved about 80% of it. The rest of it involved bumping the base idle so it ran at 500 rpm with the IAC unplugged, and not taking it out of gear. It doesn't do the stupid idle garbage as long as its in gear. Take it out, forget it, it runs like poo.

Sensor is a few months old, brand new, and since its been in the airbox, it hasn't accumulated anything :)

I set base idle at ~500 (hard without a tach) yesterday, but that was with crap in the intake (cleaner) so I think it came down, which screwed all my adjustments up when the stuff burned off. Going to make a quick go at it this morning before my first service call.

[OVERKILL]

OK, update on the insanity with my car.

So, new injectors seem to be working well.

If I plug the ACT in, the car surges. It doesn't stall, but its undrivable.

With the ACT unplugged, the car is "soft" off the line, IE, throttle response is a bit lack-luster and of course the "Check Engine" light is on.

With the ACT unplugged, the car will idle smoothly with the IAC unplugged, so I can set the idle.

If i try to do that with the ACT plugged in, it surges and cannot be done.

Its not missing anymore (injectors fixed that) but this last aggravation is quite irritating.

I have tried putting the ACT on the surface of the intake, to emulate the heat it might experience in the runner, this had no effect.

With the ACT plugged in, the car runs rediculously rich, but with it unplugged, its pretty much" normal".

This is quite baffling. The only sensor I haven't checked at this point are the O2's, which I may do this afternoon when I have some time, though how the ACT surging could possibly be caused by the O2's, well, it just doesn't make sense to me. I may try to find a bad ground or something.

I was thinking about trying my old Mustang ECM for shits and grins....................

This is VERY frustrating, as, logic would dictate, the car SHOULD be running like a top ATM.

Its pulling wicked vacuum, almost 19lbs at idle and its steady (with the ACT unplugged).

I have tried two different MAP sensors, and that made no difference.

I may try pulling codes again later, though I know its simply going to bitch about the ACT being unplugged.

Maybe I'll luck out and found I melted an O2 or something http://www.grandmarq.net/forum/images/smiles/smile.gif

[OVERKILL]

OK, here are some pics of the setup:


The car is filthy, BUT, as you can probably tell from the hood, the paint is almost flawless, I guess that's what happens when its garage stored for its entire life :)

http://www.photodump.com/direct/cadlam/PicturesDec-22-06ChrisAdlam89Stincon009.jpg

This is a shot of my 3G alternator conversion, as well as my Mark VIII Electric fan conversion:

http://www.photodump.com/direct/cadlam/PicturesDec-22-06ChrisAdlam89Stincon007.jpg

And a front shot, showing the Explorer intake and Mustang valve covers:

http://www.photodump.com/direct/cadlam/PicturesDec-22-06ChrisAdlam89Stincon004.jpg

And a side profile of the Explorer intake:

http://www.photodump.com/direct/cadlam/PicturesDec-22-06ChrisAdlam89Stincon005.jpg


I am still working on getting a Lightning EGR spacer so I can use the stock HO TB, as the one that is on there right now is the stock 50mm TC unit, and is definitely holding back the engine some.

[OVERKILL]

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Thanks to N A on the Grandmarq forums, I got a Lightning EGR spacer installed, and I installed an HO throttle body.

Put it back together, hooked it all back up using the Mustang IAC with the plug inverted and vavooooom!

Car idles like STOCK :)

I also gained at least 1,000RPM before it shifts now too, which is kinda freaky. I don't know if its pinging or not, kinda sounds like it, so I may have to switch back to high test, or, it could be the insane carbon build-up from it running so rich for so long.

In any case, it runs like a TOP!!!!!!!

Thanks for all your help guys and a special thanks to Gadget for hooking me up with N A.

-Chris

[nicholas77586]

Sweet ride man, I have been following your post, glad it worked for ya. You just need to detial that engine bay out now man.

[OVERKILL]

Sweet ride man, I have been following your post, glad it worked for ya. You just need to detial that engine bay out now man.

Tell me about it :) For most of the car's life, it was my dad's daily driver, and he got it undercoated every year and NEVER cleaned under the engine bay. You see the result of that in my pics :)