Starter Soilenoid/Relay

[joedogg]

I'm absolutely confused at what to call it, but you know what I'm talking about. The black circle mounted on the right side of the engine bay.

Well for a few weeks now my start would only work after a few attempts, my thinking was it was the button I wired up to be start since I have that bizzaire ignition problem that will probably require a replacement of a steering column.

Well I decided to try to jump the start and I went to the front of the car, disconnected the signal wire from the relay and shorted it with power. Nothing. I had to start the car by using no less than two jumper cables (too much current to be handled by a single one, whoa) attached to the positive battery then to the starter post. I then disconnected the starter post and am starting it by touching that wire to the always hot post.

I'd like to know if this is a common thing with starter relays and should I do anything except just replace it? What exactly causes this type of behavior?

Also, what kind of load can this relay take? It seems a lot of current goes through this thing, I was wondering if I might want to buy a 2nd one and hook my ignition switch stuff, or even buy one for engine and one for accessory. I need something that can take the hit of a lot of power, and the universal ignition switches kinda fold under the pressure. Also what gauge wire should I use to wire this whole thing up. I really need to do something with it and I don't want to destroy the steering column. Besides, I kinda like having the key in the dash and have already drilled a hole for it. It was really cool before it broke.

[ekooke]

The purpose of a starter relay is to REMOVE the startup current load from the ignition switch. I'm surprised that you had to use TWO sets of jumper cables to make the starter crank; I think your starter is on the way out, and even that rugged starter relay won’t stand up to (what is becoming) a short circuit for very long.

[joedogg]

Oh maybe it is the starter. I just replaced the thing two years ago, but that dosen't mean its not on the way out. It seems not to be a short but rather a long? Meaning that it won't connect at all instead of staying connected.

[ekooke]

Oh maybe it is the starter. I just replaced the thing two years ago, but that dosen't mean its not on the way out. It seems not to be a short but rather a long? Meaning that it won't connect at all instead of staying connected.

It could be the starter, but I'd replace the relay first; way easier than the starter and maybe $20 for a Motorcraft one. Before you do that though, have somebody check the Packard push-on connector at the side of the relay for 12v WHILE you turn the key to START; if the current flows as long as the key is turned to START, the relay is getting the coil pulldown power necessary to close the power contacts from the battery to the starter, BUT the relay itself STILL requires a ground for the pulldown to happen. If no power at the push-on connector with the key turned to START, it’s the ignition switch OR Neutral Safety Switch. The next test of the relay would be to run a wire from the battery to the relay and touch the push-on connector STUD ON the relay. A quick test of internal relay power contact continuity is to short across the power posts of the relay with an INSULATED HANDLE screwdriver. If the starter cranks, there’s continuity at the relay and the starter. If fooling with the relay produces nothing at the starter in any of the above tests, it’s either a bad starter, power cable (or connection) to the starter, or the starter motor has an intermittent (bad) ground that only allows a return current path part-time.

[joedogg]

Its definately the relay. I haven't tested to see if the push on signal wire has 12v but I have run a wire from the + post to the push on post and it did nothing. It should have signaled the relay to close and hit the start. After that routed power from the postive battery post directly to the starter wire. One jumper cable only turned it over a little and started to turn a little glowy red. Both of the together started it up just fine. Also now I've disconnected the starter wire and I connect it direct to the positive to start the car, for now anyway.

You think a starter relay would be hardy enough to handle the current of the accessory and the run wires from the ignition switch? I really need to move that huge power away from these crappy universal ignition switches. Using a real ignition switch is not feasable right now because I would have to basically replace the whole column in order to get a key to drive it again.

[Elemino]

Joedogg I was in your exact shoes early this year. Heres the thing, if you short the relay with a screw driver and the starter doesn't turn, it's DEFINATELY the starter. Most likely cause is the same problem I had. Removed the starter and found out theres a copper plate that slides into the back of the starter motor. I took the plate out and found it had pits from the high current arcing and causing havic on the thing from not making a good connection. To fix it, I simply took some sand paper and sanded down both sides of the plate, stuck it back in, and it worked like a charm. If you can really access the starter, you can remove the cable and do this without even taking the starter off.

Unfortunately, I soon after had to replace the starter because it began to fail to engage. The starter motor would turn, but the shaft would not come out to engage the flex plate.

[joedogg]

I had the starter motor turning but not engaging thing before, thats why I had to replace it the first time. Only time I ever had to get the car towed.

If I short the relay (Power direct to the starter cable) it does turn, but if i short to the pull off (signal from ignition switch) connector it dosen't. Still think its the motor? What I need to do is test the starter output post with a multimeter when the start is engaged. That'll tell me for sure.

[ekooke]

I had the starter motor turning but not engaging thing before, thats why I had to replace it the first time. Only time I ever had to get the car towed.

If I short the relay (Power direct to the starter cable) it does turn, but if i short to the pull off (signal from ignition switch) connector it dosen't. Still think its the motor? What I need to do is test the starter output post with a multimeter when the start is engaged. That'll tell me for sure.

Based on what you wrote, it's the relay.

[Elemino]

Definately the relay.

[joedogg]

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=NIE&mfrpartnumber=SD27711&parttype=421&ptset=A

Could someone tell me why this thing has 4 posts on it? I'm assuming the small one with no nut on it is the signal and the 2 big ones are starter and power, but whats with the small one with the nut on it.

[Elemino]

I can see what looks like a (-) negative symbol on that solenoid. There's a posibility it doesn't ground through the bolts that attatch it to the car, in which case you'll have to connect a negative wire to one post, and the wire from the ignition to the other...

[joedogg]

I can see what looks like a (-) negative symbol on that solenoid. There's a posibility it doesn't ground through the bolts that attatch it to the car, in which case you'll have to connect a negative wire to one post, and the wire from the ignition to the other...
Well that dosen't seem so hard, I could just connect a wire from that directly to the bolts that attach to the car.

[babyhauler]

[url]
Could someone tell me why this thing has 4 posts on it?

I just replaced my starter relay last week. The replacement relay had instructions to ignore the extra post if the relay in my car only has four. So I just covered the fourth post so it won't short. My car is now starting fine with a new relay and battery.

http://www.lincolnsonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48040

[gadget73]

The two small terminals would be marked I and S. I is for cars that use a bypass for the ballast resistor in crank mode. Power feeds from the I direct to the + terminal on the coil only while the engine is cranking, giving a bit more kick to the coil so the motor fires over easier. Most of our cars don't use that. I have seen it in use on a 1985 Crown Vic, but never on an 86+ car. We just ignore that extra post. Ground is through the mounting bracket.

[joedogg]

Well I bought two of these today. The "premium" model from advance. You guys were right about the 2nd post, it said to ignore it. I also hooked one up to be the relay to my ignition switch. Seems to work well, man when that thing clicks its more of a clunk. I think that this could be the final answer to my awful "gotta twist the wires to start the car" problem.

[joedogg]

Well I bought two of these today. The "premium" model from advance. You guys were right about the 2nd post, it said to ignore it. I also hooked one up to be the relay to my ignition switch. Seems to work well, man when that thing clicks its more of a clunk. I think that this could be the final answer to my awful "gotta twist the wires to start the car" problem.
I wouldn't recommend this one after all. After one good drive the relay blew itself out. I'm starting to wonder if this is just some sort of infinite amount of power that can never be controlled.

[Elemino]

The good news is that since late model fords still used the relay you should still be able to buy an oem model that you know will work.

[joedogg]

Nah I was using it to control ACC and IGN power. I have another new on on START. It was just too much power.

[ekooke]

If it's running enough power thru the Start side to blow that relay, it's the starter motor drawing excessive current and the starter needs to be replaced.

[Elemino]

If I understand you properly you were using these relays to turn other things off and on... is that right? If so you can't use that particular relay to do it. They're not built for continuous use. But I do have a solution for you.

http://www.cardomain.com/item/MSD8960
http://images.cardomain.net/products/msd/MSD8960_1.jpg

If you need higher capacity this will handle more than your alt can put out @ 200 amps.

http://www.cardomain.com/item/LITS200
http://images.cardomain.net/products/lit/LITS200_1.jpg

[joedogg]

Dude! So what I'm seeing here is essentially a relay that is built to control the ENTIRE OUTPUT OF THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM???? Thats EXACTLY what I need! That rocks, I'm probably gonna pick one of these up when I get paid again. You are right about that start relay, it was about ready to cook an egg off of when I got to my destination about 6 miles down the road, and it never started again. This does look like the perfect thing for this application though.

[joedogg]

If it's running enough power thru the Start side to blow that relay, it's the starter motor drawing excessive current and the starter needs to be replaced.
Nah I just replaced the starter relay and it gave me the idea to try hooking one to my ignition too to handle the power of the car since my steering column broke in a way that I cannot fix without getting a whole new column. I had a 2nd starter relay on the IGN and ACC lines. It is mounted underneith my dash.

[Elemino]

Dude! So what I'm seeing here is essentially a relay that is built to control the ENTIRE OUTPUT OF THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM???? Thats EXACTLY what I need! That rocks, I'm probably gonna pick one of these up when I get paid again. You are right about that start relay, it was about ready to cook an egg off of when I got to my destination about 6 miles down the road, and it never started again. This does look like the perfect thing for this application though.Glad I could help. Let me know how it turns out.

[joedogg]

Glad I could help. Let me know how it turns out.
Well I didn't buy the specific one you linked. I went to eBay and tried to get one cheaper, so I found this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=007&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=170064787053&rd=1,1

Same rating and even looks the same, with shipping it wound up being an exact even $50. I got it on Friday and installed it saturday. It works great! It won't heat up, it won't give out and man is it a heavy and sturdy relay. I didn't even realize such incredible relays existed until now. So anyway, I have a universal ignition switch in the dash board thats hooked to this relay's signal port and the start soilenoid in the engine bay. It works very well and I can start it just like a normal car without worrying about something exploding in my face. First time in a long time. The in-dash ignition is also pretty cool. It's like a sweet custom mod. I like it better there anyway. Only problem now is that I have a keyhole still in the dash that's totally nonfunctional, but I guess I'll just ignore it and all will be well. Thanks for the help guys!

[Elemino]

That's even better. I love Stinger's products... Have you seen my page?

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/6/web/114000-114999/114931_27_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/6/web/114000-114999/114931_65_full.jpg

It's in my entire system! Glad you could get what is actually better quality for less. I'm glad it really worked out for you. Now it's time for some pix joedogg!!!

[joedogg]

Oh I'll take some pics, I just have to make it a little less ugly under there. I have it mounted under the dash in an unfortunately visible location. Its not so bad though, kinda looks cool down there and I could easily move it. I should take some pics, since its my cool mod. Although don't ask me how I broke the steering lock off, it just happened to work for me pretty easily. Its been over a year and a half now and I'm sure that that thing is not going to relock itself. I figured starting the car was more important than a small security feature that didn't do really all that much in the first place to protect the car. I do remember seeing the battery with the digital readout that updates strangely and missed half the digits on pictures cause the camera is too fast. So far this relay kinda rules!