Holy Spaghetti! Need '78 vacuum schematics!

[CaliCajun78]

Hi there,

I'm Steve in south Louisiana, first post!

Just bought a '78 4-dr Continental with the 400-2bbl. engine.
Amazingly good condition - 85K original miles. EVERYTHING UNDER THE HOOD IS ORIGINAL, even the spark plug wires, with dates!

One big hitch - after two of the 5-book Ford dealer manual set off eBay, several hoses were definitely hooked up wrong. Car was driving sorta OK, but when shifting through neutral or into park, it started this roller-coaster up-down surge for 15-20 seconds before evening. Stabbing the gas pedal eliminated it. But the mileage killed me, and the exhaust is awful. Drove from Los Angeles to Louisiana and got 11 mpg highway the whole way at $3.25/gal (2,000 miles!). Something is wrong - someone put some hoses where they didn't belong (some newer zipties clued me in some work had been done).

I am DESPERATELY trying to find vacuum schematics for this motor!
Better yet, a 1978 Ford EVTM (Electrical/Vacuum Troubleshooting Manual). Two different Chiltons and the Ford manual disagree on nearly everything, and NONE have complete schematics, just lots of bits and pieces, and things like, "some vehicles had system X." Even for the CSSA system, the Ford and Chilton manuals have the PVS reversed in the pictures. Can't tell which hose to hook to mysterious spots on the 2150 carb called the "spark port," "ported vacuum," "EGR port," etc. There is not one picture in any of the three manuals that shows which port is which. Even stuff as simple as the air cleaner hookups are conflicting - plus all the mention of the extras it "might" have, such as a VDV (Vacuum Differential Valve) to go with the smog pump air bypass (dump) valve - or might not!

I could go on but am banging my head on the keyboard.

Again, DESPERATELY in need of authoritative vacuum schematic for '78 Continental (mfg. March '78) with 400-2bbl. engine.

I can clean the EGR valve, rebuild the carb with my eyes closed, etc., but the spaghetti is just killing me dead.

First time poster - love my Lincoln - but right now don't know which it's eating up faster - the petrol, or me!:(

Thanks y'all - I'll put up pictures soon.

Stay cool (110-degree heat index here tomorrow with the humidity and me outside with the skeeters!)

-Steve C.:eek:

[Dereck]

Hi CaliCajun78

Welcome dude :cheer:

My '79 Continental only ever did 11- 13mpg so I don't think you are far off what's expected, anyway with gas so cheap 11mpg doesn't really matter - does it? :D

You cannot get a 1978 EVTM as such all you can get is the 5 volumes of the shop manual and an emmissions parts list/vacuum schematics manual.

I have the schematics for 79 models which may be simular or even the same but they go by calibration code, you should be able to find your calibration code on the front of the left valve cover, post it up and I will see if it matches up close to anything I got.

Regards

Dereck

[CaliCajun78]

Nice to hear from you so fast! I wonder how many hours you are ahead of me (you're in the U.K.?).

Thanks a million for your offer of help.

I am late for my uncle's for dinner, just finished another frustrating day under the hood, and another thunderstorm is bearing down fast!

Have to get in shower, and on the road 20 minutes ago!

I just ran out for a quick look - saw 351M-400 family/EGR/AIR/catalyst. Then below, "conforms to California emissions" and a ford #D8AE-9C485-JD. Then in a box to the lower right, the number "B-110". At top right of sticker, "evaporative family L-5"

When I get back from dinner I will look more carefully to see if I had missed anything. Did not see anything on the sticker (LH valve cover) called "calibration code. Oh yeah - it says Maintenance schedule "B."

I will post a more complete reply then - my uncle is a Texan and being late is a very bad thing. I just got the car running well enough where I think it'll get me there (2 miles down country roads).

Just re-routed a few more lines and it' seems like the factory routing. But it's still surging like crazy.

Thanks so much! I can use any straw in a whirlwind right now, or whatever the saying is.

All the best!

-Steve

1110 :)

[CaliCajun78]

Dereck,

Enchiladas with cheese & onions & Texas chunk chili.... oh yeah! If you haven't tried Tex-Mex.... I'll try to save you some!

Hey, I have been studying the FIVE manuals I have now (including library loans), and I just read that calibration numbers started in 1979. Go figure. So '78s don't have one.

But even without the calibration number, if you have any vacuum schematics for the engine compartment on your '79 (for example, smog pump bypass valve, charcoal canister purge valve lines, air cleaner TVS switch (two lines), PVS switches (the one or two things screwed into the thermostat housing with about three hoses apiece coming off them), etc., they would add information to the hopper.

I'm finding that in this era, darn near each car was rigged different, as they changed their emissions approach every couple months it seems!

Any info greatly appreciated.

Thanks again,
Steve

[CaliCajun78]

Think I found a good schematic on a Ford Truck site, that re-directed me to the Autozone site. Now if I just go the Autozone site myself and ask for the vacuum schematic for the 1978 Continental 400-2V, it says NOT AVAILABLE!

But the truck site had a link that took me to a list of Autozone schematics for all 1979 351M/400/460 motors. This page might prove helpful to other '78-'79 Lincoln owners:

[url]http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/0c/e6/05/0900823d800ce605/repairInfoPages.htm

By scrolling through the schematics, I was able to find one that matched mine almost exactly = #54. :grin:

Now do I feel like a total idiot!! My hoses were hooked up right to begin with! :oops:

What should have clued me in was how totally original the engine compartment looked, with the original color stripes still painted on the vacuum lines.

So now I go put everything back the way it was, and look for BASICS (plugged EGR port, bad carb, carb/intake gasket leak, etc.)

The cars I'd worked on most were a '68 Mustang and a '79 Honda - neither of which had the spaghetti forest! Things just looked so wrong on this Lincoln, and the Chilton and dealer manuals led me astray.

Now I know the ugly truth.... any car from this era has MANY emissions permutations, even within the same model year. The manuals had me hook a bunch of stuff up wrong that was right to begin with.

Shame on them (official Ford dealership 5-manual set, plus three different Chiltons), for not showing the different diagrams easily available from the Autozone website. It would have saved major grief and hair pulling!:evil:

So lesson learned - don't mess with emissions routings unless it's OBVIOUS someone has screwed around with them/removed parts!

[Dereck]

Hi CaliCajun78

I am 6 hours ahead of you, so depending on when you post you will either get a real quick reply or a real slow one :)

I am glad you found something to match your emissions controls as I found almost 30 different schematics in my book for the 78/79 400M including a couple from May 78, I have the parts list for the calibration (9-17Q-RO) you mentioned if you are interested I could try and scan it for you.

Regards

Dereck

[CaliCajun78]

Hi Dereck,

Six hours difference noted!

I can't believe it, but the (9-17Q-RO) calibration matches almost exactly what is under my "bonnet" (at least before I started moving hoses). None of the other schematics are close.

But there's one difference. If you look at the Autozone schematic I referenced, you see a 2-port "VCV" to the right of the words "FRONT OF" (ENGINE). Just to the right of that, you see "V REST" (vacuum restrictor).

To match what was on my vehicle, just draw a straight vertical line between the two vacuum lines just to the right of the V REST, eliminate this VCV and V REST, and you have my exact schematic. There's no VCV over to the left. The two lines are connected together with a small 90-degree black connector.

Maybe this VCV (notice it has two ports, and the other two VCVs lower on the page have THREE ports) was new for '79. I haven't found any 2-port VCV on my car - and I don't see anyplace for it to screw in, but I will look again. Maybe someone removed it.

As this schematic (#54 from Autozone was the second-earliest for the '79, with a date of July 6, 1978, maybe it actually is carried over from one of the last 1978 schematics (my Linc was built in March '78)).

Yes, I would LOVE to have a scan of the parts list! I went over all the schematics, and with the noted exception, is an EXACT match for my '78 Continental 400-2V!

Bless you! :workout:

[gadget73]

Those old emissions systems sure are a nightmare. I'm one of those hackjob folks when dealing with the vacuum forest on a 70s car. It all came off and went in the can, and only crucial stuff like vacuum advance, brake booster, pcv, and climate controls remained connected. Everything else would go away. Usually the car ran far better afterward, but don't even think about getting through smog with it. I commend you for your efforts in trying to keep it all original though. I

'm also gonna agree with Dereck, probably not likely you'll get over 13-14 mpg out of that thing even on the highway. A tuneup should show some small improvement if everything is original, but I wouldn't get your hopes up for miracles. You could probably actually improve economy and power in one shot by swapping out the camshaft and intake for something a bit less smoggy, and it would run pretty well. Those 400 engines in stock form are pretty weak and got a bad rap, but with a cam and a decent intake, they'd really go. Even the cam isn't so horrible, from the factory they're retarded something like 6 degrees. An adjustable timing set can put that right and allow you to make some more power. Definitely no powerhouse but it should be a bit better. With the right work though, you can make that 400 put out enough power to surprise a lot of people.

[CaliCajun78]

Another day, hopes dashed again - and more thunder and lightning...

Hey, Gadget! How ya doing on the east coast? Watch out - they say you're due for a hurricane. Went through Lili and Katrina and Rita here and it's time to get those supplies (me too!). And I'm with you in general. I'd like to rip all the smog crap off. The only reason I don't is that this car is insanely stock, and if I can get it running with all original EVERYTHING (even the spark plug wires are original, with the dates stamped on them), it would be pretty cool.

Well, bad news first. I just put all the hoses back the way they were.... and it still is barely running. The only way to drive it at all now is to turn the idle screw up high.

What it's doing is surging rhythmically up and down at idle in all gears like a roller coaster

rrrrruuuuUMMMMMPPPPpfppfffff.. rrrrRRRUUUUUUMMMMPPPppppfffff...

(repeat). And nearly killing at the bottom.

Did some night inspection with a timing light. The mechanical advance appears to be defunct - it gives about 2 to 3 degrees advance at most, even revved up way high (i plugged off the vacuum advance before I did this.) Plug in the vacuum advance, and I get plenty of advance - so the re-plumbing I did today was correct in that respect..

Speakig to Dereck here - I told you I had read that calibration numbers did not come in until 1979.

Some good news maybe? Well what do you know, but I swiped some grease off the front of the left valve cover and there was a sticker after all. Will try to describe it:

On the left side, in very small type a "C" at top and "2" at bottom.
Then to the right, some BIG type: WK421BA.

Then a vertical line, with three stacked vertical boxes, reading, top to bottom, "C," "R," "S." Then go to the right and another vertical line, with three boxes stacked and apparently aligned to be a pair with the left-hand set of boxes. The right side ones, top to bottom = "17P," "0" (appears to be a number), "13."

So it appears they
re trying to say something like:

C=17P
R=0
S=13

Does any of that sound remotely familiar with your calibration codes?
Probably not. But thanks for all the help!

The fact the distributor mechanical advance isn't moving doesn't seem good, so the agenda from here is to do is check out the purge canister valve diapragm and gasket, the fuel bowl solenoid, plug in the spare brand new spark box I bought to drive across the country (you don't even have to bolt it in - just attach the pigtails, with battery disconnected), see where the rotor's pointing when crank's at TDC, then rotate the crank back and forth while watching the distributor rotor for excessive slop in the timing chain.

After that, screw it. Carb's coming off down to the manifold for rebuild, EGR cleaning, gaskets, etc. When I get frustrated, one thing I CAN do very well is take it out on a carb. Rebuilt a 2150 for a friend a few months ago and they are child's play.

I'll keep you posted. If anyone has any ideas on the BAD surging at idle (really is like a roller coaster!!!) Strange the car drove great in Cali - then about the second day across country the problem started very small, then got worse and worse. Hmmm.... Even after restoring the vacuum schematics the the exact one that got me 2,000 miles.. :confused:

[CaliCajun78]

Dereck,

Just re-read your post about the calibrations, and looked at mine again.

Doesn't it seem to you my sticker is saying my calibration code is 17P-R0?

Since you said the one I picked off the website was 17Q-R0, and they're one letter apart, and my car was built BEFORE the date of the 17Q.......

So if you have something called 17p_R0, it might be the exact match!
-Steve:idea:

[CaliCajun78]

Have been checking underhood components one by one - all original on this 85,000 mile car and found my first bad one = the carb fuel bowl vent solenoid. No power getting to it. Apply power to it, and it works fine. So I have put it in line with a vacuum cap on the carb fuel bowl nipple.

Gets interesting though. Before I drove the car from California to Louisiana, I noticed that the "ENGINE" idiot light didn't come on. Instead of an actual temperature gauge, they hooked both the coolant temp sensor AND the oil pressure switch to this dashboard light. At 245 degrees, the light comes on and says, "Yer screwed, buddy."

So I mounted a manual temperature gauge - ran it through a convenient spot on the firewall and mounted it on the lower left dash near my left knee. All good.

So back to the interesting part - I drove myself crazy with the electrical schematic trying to find the short that wouldn't let the ENGINE light go on when the key was turned on.

Well, just found it. As soon as I put 12 volts to the carb fuel bowl vent solenoid, the solenoid worked, and I heard a buzzing from inside the car. Went to look at the dash - and the freaking ENGINE light was on! The wires go through the same harness, pressed agaist a scorching-hot intake. For fun, then, I applied 12 volts to the losse connector that used to be on the temp switch I took out - and it sparked like crazy.

So the temp/oil circuit is grounded, yet the carb fuel bowl solenoid transfers juice to the ENGINE light circuit fed by the temp/oil circuit, WITHOUT GROUNDING OUT!

Sounds like a harness melt somewhere?

I'll get to it AFTER the car stops running like a rollercoaster at idle. That's got to stop. Last night, due to the high idle speed I had to put it on, it dieseled on for NINETY SECONDS, I kid you not.

Came home, got on the Internet, and learned to turn the car off in "Drive" when I park it. That worked. (Felt like I was in a bad movie, with that dieseling that wouldn't stop!) :cuckoo:

[gadget73]

85k on the original plugs? jeez. Probably thats why it diesels, that, or the timing is way out of whack and making the plugs too hot. Overly lean fuel mix can also do this, and could be related to the rolling idle. I'd say check for vacuum leaks, but I guess you're already doing that lol. I'd still give serious thought to a tune-up. 85k on a set of wires and plugs is way too long, especially when you add the fact they are 30 years old and on a carb car.

oh yes, the "replace engine" light. The 80s Vics and Grand Marqs had that piece of junk. Its interesting when the engine is so dead that it makes no oil pressure, and that thing strobes the whole time you're driving.

Possible that the power issue is farther back. Probably more likely the vent solenoid shares a power connection with the + side of the idiot light. The oil pressure and temperature are the ground side, the other side of the bulb is just key-switched power. You might want to get your hands on an EVTM to see if the circuits come together at some point. Possible its a blown fuse or broken connection.

[CaliCajun78]

Gadget73,

Thanx for the ideas on the idiot light. Can you believe I HAD a wiring schematic in California last month, but somewhere in the packing and driving, it has disappeared. It may turn up yet. But now a new priority! I just read in the original Ford dealer manual in bold type that if the fuel bowl solenoid stays open while the engine is running it will cause a lean mixture due to air from the purge valve.

So last night I put a vacuum cap on the fuel bowl nipple to stop that. Then today I read on the web that if I do that, as the fuel heats after I turn off the motor (and this motor gets HOT!), it will expand force its way down into the intake, etc., and cause more problems.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. So what I'm going to do for now is chop the power line to the fuel solenoid, so as to bypass the ENGINE light, and run a hot line straight from somewhere on the starter solenoid so that the fuel bowl solenoid closes when the engine is started. (The solenoid DOES work.) Later I'll deal with the possibilities you suggested about the ENGINE light. The reason I don't want to dig into it now is that when I bought the car, the same harness that carb solenoid wire runs through was pressed hard against a scorching intake manifold bolt, the insulation had come off, and a bare wire was sawed halfway through that led to the automatic headlamp dimming switch. I repaired that, but that tells me there may be a melt somewhere in that harness.

For now, I'm going to concentrate on the surging problem - because actually that car ran beautifully when I bought it and for the first day of my trip across country - even with the shorted carb solenoid. Then the surging problem started. Take a car that sat for most of the last 5 years, had 82K original miles, then drive it 2,000 miles in three days. Lots of chances for things like gaskets and diaphragms and carbon breaking loose, etc. to happen.

As far as the plugs and wires, the plugs are 3 y.o. and look perfect, and the timing light flashes nicely with all the wires - though they ARE 30 y.o. The lady who owned the car had it almost obsessively maintained.

So next, investigate the lack of centrifugal advance, then take off the carb and EGR down to the manifold. That'll replace a LOT of old gaskets that have a chance to leak.... if it's still surging, I'll keeping plowing ahead. People who know me say I'm the most stubborn person they have ever met. Hey.... I'm trying to make a 1978 smog system work - what does that say? :rock:

[CaliCajun78]

Dereck, thanks man for all the help - that schematic was pure gold! Though it was for a '79, it was close enough to mine that it was VERY useful.

Hey, wanted to share with you and anyone else faced with a missing carb tag and multiple kits to choose from - I was at a dead end because Autozone called out three different kits for the '78 Continental 400-2bbl. motor, gave Ford numbers, but otherwise there was no way to tell which kit to order if you didn't have tag.

There's more than one way to skin a cat! I called Standard Motor Products (they make the GP Sorensen kits) - here's the number - it's hard to find - the website tells you to e-mail them: (718) 706-3900.

I explained my problem, asked what's the difference in the three kits and a fellow there actually went back to some old BOOKS because he doesn't like computers... Once I read him the Sorensen part numbers, he said it was in the book plain as day - the three kits were Federal, California, and High Altitude. It's just that Autozone and others don't put all the available info into their systems!

So now I know which carb kit to buy! In 1979, they went to just the one kit - the CA one. But if have a '78 400-2bbl., you'd better have a darn tag!

Here are the Sorensen kit numbers (they probably fit more apps, but the key is the Fed/CA/H-A thing):

96-551 (Federal) - fits D8OE-HA & D8OE-UA
96-437A (California) - fits D8PE-BNA, D8SE-DA & D8SE-EA
96-371 (High-Altitude) - fits D8PE-BPA & D8SE-CA

Hope this may help someone out eventually
:)

[CaliCajun78]

Just had to post this on both threads....

THE LINCOLN IS FIXED!!!!!!
:cheer::encore::drink:

My brain is fried from two weeks under that hot hood in south Louisiana heat and sudden downpours and lightning bolt swarms.

Once again: :cheer::encore::drink::faint:

Thank you everyone!

Still have a few nagging things to sort out (shorted fuel bowl solenoid, shorted/broken throttle positioner solenoid, possibly frozen distributor mechanical advance)

But all and all, she's running like a champ!

Here's how it went down:

With Dereck's advice, what I had to do was find the calibration number on the front of the driver's side valve cover. He mailed me a link to, believe it or not, the www.autozone.com website. This link contained about a dozen different schematics for that same 400-2bbl. engine. And they only had the '79 schematics, not the '78. But by going through them, I was able to find a schematic that matched what was under my hood almost exactly, and it was only one calibration letter off.

It turns out that the vacuum hoses WERE connected correctly! Just in a very weird way because my car is a California emissions car. That's why when I went to the Chilton and even the Ford manuals, they said my hoses were hooked up wrong, even though they weren't.

It turns out, after all this mess, that the carb was TOTALLY messed up. Someone had rebuilt it, OMITTED the two thin gaskets between the carb and the black nitrile spacer and between the spacer and the EGR spacer, then crunched down so hard due to the (obviously) resulting vacuum leak that the four plastic washers at the spacer corners had split into several pieces - spreading out the edges of the spacer like a riffled deck of cards, letting air in and, due to the omission of the two gaskets and the non-compressibility of the remains of the washers, letting fuel go anywhere it wanted under the carb. When I lifted up the carb, there was fuel EVERYWHERE! Also, the float level had been set so low (probably in a confused attempt to compensate for why the car wouldn't run) that I'm surprised it ran at all - especially 2,000 miles from California to Louisiana!

Note - the two thin gaskets were NOT included in the GP Sorensen carb rebuild kit, nor was the one under the EGR spacer. This is a MAJOR flaw in these kits - if you don't notice they're not in the kit, you'll have the carb apart and not have the gaskets to remount it! I will be calling Sorensen about this. The instructions actually tell you to replace them if they're bad - well, DUHHH!!!!! they're ALWAYS bad when you take off the carb because they're used!!!! Wouldn't take a genius to put them in the kit! :shock:

I would advise anyone rebuilding a Motorcraft 2100-2150 carb to DITCH the black carb spacer with the washers in the kit, buy the EGR gasket and two thin gaskets ahead of time if they're not in the kit, then buy a thick aftermarket non-nitrile (nitrile ones are usually black and slick) carb spacer WITHOUT the plastic corner washer inserts. The omission of the washers allows more satisfactory compression on the carb nuts to accommodate any warpage in the carb base (don't overtighten), and really seals the heck out of the bottom of the carb. I still am aghast that Sorensen omitted those three gaskets. Any sane person replaces the gasket under the EGR spacer because once you move the carb, that gasket's likely going to fail...:rolleyes:

Car is running very well now! Fired right up smooth and strong on the second turn of the key, with no starting fluid, and an empty fuel bowl. Now.... on to the A/C!

In case it will help anyone, I am going to post again the link to the Autozone schematics that Dereck sent me. The Autozone computer system is not up to snuff yet - the only way to access these schematics is to type in a '79 Bronco as your vehicle. All the other cars that had the same engine, (Ford sedans, Mercs, etc.) you type them in and it says it has no info! Go figure!

Here's the link.

http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/0c/e6/05/0900823d800ce605/repairInfoPages.htm

One of these '79 schematics will be identical or very close for anyone with a '78 or '79 big car with the 400-2bbl. engine.

Thanks again for the help :)
-Steve - Time for another beer!:drink: