EGR - How much time

[ohio90bb]

Hi everyone!

Aside from our 90MkVII , we also have a 1996 LTC with nearly 170K miles. She's been pretty good to us.

The check engine light came on about a week ago. I finally got the codes read at a local auto parts store and IIRC, it was "insufficient flow to EGR" or something very close to that statement.

Am I looking at pulling the EGR? Parts person said I may want to check the vac hoses first. So let us say I do and they're okay.

I've looked over the tech article and have to say it is not something I'm looking forward to doing - but if I must, I will.

How much time are we talking about to do this and do it right?

And - is there anything else I can do or check before yanking the EGR?

Thanks one and all!

[87_Crown_Vic]

should be 2 nuts that hold the EGR on the intake setup. many times the passages get carbon buildup restricting the flow. i would open up the butterfly on the throttlebody and look in it with a light to see ho much buildup is inside. if possible, take the intake off and clean it up good. EGR is pretty simple to mess with.

[BillyBob TC]

If im not mistaken, on a 96-97 it should be an accurate code. Plastic intake, no passages or restrictions. Genuinely defective valve or cracked pipe etc?
Time wise, 10-15 minutes tops if you have the new valve and a new gasket in hand already. I bought a new gasket and used it, but I saved the old one as it came off in perfect condition.

[Dereck]

Hi Ohio90bb

I expect it was a code P0401 that was pulled, on a 96 Town Car this is most often caused by a faulty DPFE sesnor.

There many causes of a code P0401 and only correct diagnostic procedure will find the cause.

Regards

Dereck

[ohio90bb]

Hi Dereck - I had to look up that one... I did unplug the battery and it went about a day before kicking back on. I can say my mileage has bee rotten - can't break out above 22/24mpg... it used to average 24/26 and I've been babying her. Are there any handyman tests for the DPFE sensor, or do you just buy/replace? (No proper maintenance manual, just a Chilton paperback.)

BillyBobTC: This one was produced 3/95, so I'm thinking it is a 95, not a 96. It has an aluminum intake, so maybe it is actually a 95. Don't know why I thought it was a 96.

87CrownVic: I came upon another article on the net which suggested what you do - look down inside that intake manifold and see how much gunk is in there.

My main restraint is time - in that when I do whatever I do, I must get it done within a day's time. From what I'm reading, that's doable...

Well, now to find the tech article for TC rear brake pads :)

Thanks everyone!

[Dereck]

Hi Ohio90bb

If you have the aluminium intake then the first thing to do is pull the throttle adapter elbow/throttle body and clean out the EGR channels, there is a tech tip about his.

To test the DPFE sensor you will need a vacuum pump without it all you can really check is the reference voltage and wiring continuity, there is a tech tip on changing the DPFE sensor.

Regards

Dereck

[ohio90bb]

Dereck and everyone - you won't believe me, but the Seafoam seems to have done the trick!

I know you said it wouldn't have any effect but somehow it did.

The Check Engine light went out about a day and a half after the Seafoam treatment and has remained out since. I know its working, as it lights up when you switch the ignition to the 'on' position.

So I am surprised to say the least - but pleasantly. I didn't monkey with a single thing under the hood. The CE light had been on for about two weeks before I could get the codes pulled.

It would be an amazing coincidence if, after the Seafoam application, the CE light went out 'on its own'.

Any thoughts?

[Dereck]

Hi Ohio90bb

It will come on again, fancy a wager? :)

Regards

Dereck

[Newave Dave]

Ohio 90, Maybe it was "spontaneous Remission"?

[cason1]

It will come on again shortly. The Seafoam does help though depending on where you add it from. I use the vacuum port on the side of the throttle body. If you clean the EGR passages and Seafoam it every or every other oil change through the throttle body vacuum port, you should be able to go quite a while without it clogging up again.

[ohio90bb]

Dereck,

Oh, I'd say odds are pretty good it will come back on so I won't wager. As long as it stays off for a few weeks, I'm happy :)

I put in through the pcv vacuum line fwiw...

So, since I had half a pint remaining, and my Mk VII BB was just sitting there, nice and toasty from a drive, I thought I'd give the rest to the MKVII.

The easiest way to get it in (for me) was to pull the air intake box cover off, twist it gently upwards and pour a bit by bit into the tube, while giving it a bit of gas. You see, I wanted another unscientific test to see if there was any benefit.

Again - much to my surprise - the Mark VII did well. Fact is, it now starts faster - perhaps the ends of the injectors somehow got cleaned? I don't know - but it now starts about 50 percent sooner than it did.

What amazed me the most about the MKVII's response to Seafoam was its immediate change in mpg. Sure, the dash calculations can't be completely accurate, but as a reference it works.

On a trip we've driven hundreds of times, never getting better than 19.2 average, it got 22.3! On the way home, you could watch it climb through the 19.2 barrier and keep on going ever up.

Tomorrow, we're taking an extended drive (couple hundred miles) so it will be very interesting to see what mpg calcs come out of the MKVII.

So the question, at least in my mind, is what is this Seafoam doing to the intake and exhaust system which results in the car's efficiency going up?

[ohio90bb]

Hi Ohio90bb

It will come on again, fancy a wager? :)

Regards

Dereck

Dereck,

You'll be happy to know that yes, indeed, it did come back on. Aw, it was a useless hope - but I'm still intrigued as to why it stayed off for, IIRC, at least a week.

So its off to the Tech tips and see what I can see.

I disconnected the battery the other day and let it sit a good half hour before connecting it again. From a cold engine, I drove it about 10 or 15 miles, shut if off and let it go cold again while I cleaned the interior, then cleaned the engine compartment.

Immediately on restart, the light came on again.

Does that help pinpoint it as the EGR itself or the DPFE sensor?

BTW - Just looked at the articles I could find but didn't see one mentioning how to test the DPFE so Dereck, do you have a link or something you can past here in response on the test procedure? (Thanks!)

[ExecTC]

Ohio 90, sorry to hear that the code came back on. It would have been great if it would have stayed away. I've done the EGR cleaning twice on my 95, and it probably needs it again. The project isn't technically difficult, but it is a pain in the ___ (my opinion). You have to literally lay across the engine to get to the center back, be very careful not to beak anything that you end up laying across. It's like any of these type of projects, the first time takes you two or three times longer than the next time you do it (space is very tight so you'll develop some good short cuts, and hopefully figure out how not to destroy the skin on your hands). I think that the first time that I tackeled it, it probably took me two hours, or so. Next time, probably an hour or so in total. There is a good write-up in the tech section, but be aware that each model year has some differences in parts and layout. From 96 on, Ford used a plastic, metal-reinforced intake manifold that was supposed to cut back on having had any EGR channels clogging problems, although the original "plastic manifold" had a nasty habit of breaking.

By the way, I've never had a code hinting to me that the the channels were blocked on my 95. It's always been determined just by a degradation in operation. So, maybe it is a different problem causing the code? Or maybe if it's the first time that it's even been cleaned, it's just really clogged up.

Good luck, Tony

[ohio90bb]

Ohio 90, sorry to hear that the code came back on. It would have been great if it would have stayed away. I've done the EGR cleaning twice on my 95, and it probably needs it again. The project isn't technically difficult, but it is a pain in the ___ (my opinion). You have to literally lay across the engine to get to the center back, be very careful not to beak anything that you end up laying across. It's like any of these type of projects, the first time takes you two or three times longer than the next time you do it (space is very tight so you'll develop some good short cuts, and hopefully figure out how not to destroy the skin on your hands). I think that the first time that I tackeled it, it probably took me two hours, or so. Next time, probably an hour or so in total. There is a good write-up in the tech section, but be aware that each model year has some differences in parts and layout. From 96 on, Ford used a plastic, metal-reinforced intake manifold that was supposed to cut back on having had any EGR channels clogging problems, although the original "plastic manifold" had a nasty habit of breaking.

By the way, I've never had a code hinting to me that the the channels were blocked on my 95. It's always been determined just by a degradation in operation. So, maybe it is a different problem causing the code? Or maybe if it's the first time that it's even been cleaned, it's just really clogged up.

Good luck, Tony
Hey thank Tony, really encourages me to get at that EGR, being 6'4" and all - stretched out over the engine, oh yeah :)

I think, if the DPFE sensor is relatively inexpensive, I should try it first. Because I didn't tell the entire story on the light going out this past weekend.

I'd also tapped on the DPFE sensor, lightly, you know, that backyard mechanic attitude of "gee, maybe tapping it will help." Heh heh... And you mention you never actually had a code showing when your EGR was plugged, right? So maybe the DPFE sensor might be the easier first move?

Now there's probably no doubt the EGR could use a cleaning but I'm wondering why it isn't possible to shoot a couple of good blasts of PB Blaster down in there, somewhere, somehow? There has to be some type of chemical one could get in there to loosen all the deposits up without having to remove it.

Is something like that possible? Anyone?

[Dereck]

Dereck,

I disconnected the battery the other day and let it sit a good half hour before connecting it again. From a cold engine, I drove it about 10 or 15 miles, shut if off and let it go cold again while I cleaned the interior, then cleaned the engine compartment.

Immediately on restart, the light came on again.

Does that help pinpoint it as the EGR itself or the DPFE sensor?

BTW - Just looked at the articles I could find but didn't see one mentioning how to test the DPFE so Dereck, do you have a link or something you can past here in response on the test procedure? (Thanks!)

Hi Ohio90bb

On an OBD-II equiped car disconnecting the battery will not erase the code, the check engine light may go out butthe code will still be stored in the PCM, the only way to erase the code is with a scan tool.

The only way you are going to know why the MIL in on is to have the fault codes read.

DPFE testing (http://www.lincolnsonline.com/forum/showpost.php?p=610476&postcount=13)

Regards

Dereck

[ExecTC]

I don't want to desuade you from doing it, just wanted to make sure that you knew it's a bit of a pain. There are also two gaskets (for a 95 Fel-Pro #'s 94800 and 60894, I think) that you'll end up taking apart, that you may want to order ahead of time, although the metal-fabric one is definitely reusable if still in good shape (and sometimes the cork one is also reusable). If you do decide to try to just loosen that carbon precipitate out of the EGR channels wihtout taking it apart, be aware that carbon crap is going to end up going somewhere and may cause even worse problems - maybe the injectors? Besides, the first time that I did mine, I don't think that any chemical would have cleaned the almost total clog in the passages of the throttle body. I had to use a drill bit slightly smaller than the hole of the pasage ways, then turn the drill bit manually backwards using my fingers (don't use a drill though). In short, it required physical action, although carb cleaner did work well to finish the cleanup. Be careful where you use carb cleaner though as I think that an inside portion of the throttle assembly is treated with a special coating that can be removed by carb cleaner.

It's very doable, but takes a little patience and time.

Good luck, Tony

[ohio90bb]

Hi all again... Well, the new Focus allowed me to delay this little maintenance function for a few weeks but now its on the front burner again...

I'm wondering if it might make sense to mark the hood for location and remove it first before tackling the job.

My thinking is it would be much easier to get to the rear of the intake manifold and the EGR without the hood in the way.

Is this right-thinking or just day dreaming?

Thanks!!!

[micke_932]

It is not worth the trouble, it will not make a big difference, getting the intake elbow off is no big deal, you do that in 20 minutes even if it is the first time, removing the EGR valve itself is a little bit more messy, the two screws holding the egr to the intake is in a nasty place, expect to loose som skin in the process.

The connection between the EGR valve and the pipe is nasty, the easiest thing is to get under the car and remove the EGR pipe from the exhaust instead and get the hole thing out, they are much easier to reach.

The worst part at least on my -92 was to get the two hoses back on the EGR pipe, I think I left a least a pound of flesh down there from my hands...

[Chevyguy]

Just clean out the EGR passages, don't touch the EGR valve unless absolutley necessary. The pipe from the EGR to the manifold has a reasonable chance of cracking or failing once you touch it.

I just did mine, it was fully plugged shut. Leave the throttle body on the elbow, just remove the four bolts holding the elbow to the intake, remove the throttle linkage (just snaps on and off) unplug the TPS, unbolt the bracket mounted to the rear of the elbow (hardest part) and leave all those plugs in place. The TECH writeup is very good but alas only applies to the 91 - 95 models with the ALL alumium intake.

[ohio90bb]

Thanks guys... I realized after reading your posts and climbing around under the hood, pulling it wouldn't make much difference. I'm PB blasting things I'll need to loosen and tackle this holiday weekend.

I'll try to roust out the digital camera and get some snapshots for those in the future having the aluminum intake - if they turn out okay, I'll write it up for the board.

[Chevyguy]

The writeup has only one pic

http://www.lincolnsonline.com/tech/00015.html

I took some of my 93 back in 2004 when I did the procedure only to find minimal carbon. I just had the PFE hose loose (The 93 had the single hose sensor not the DPFE) A long extension on the 8mm socket is needed to get to those bolts, dont drop em!!

http://www.lincolnsonline.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5380&stc=1&d=1214914329

http://www.lincolnsonline.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5381&stc=1&d=1214914349

http://www.lincolnsonline.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5379&stc=1&d=1214914304

http://www.lincolnsonline.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5382&stc=1&d=1214914399

http://www.lincolnsonline.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5383&stc=1&d=1214914651

[ExecTC]

Ohio90bb, good to hear that you'll be tackling it. I agree with what's been said, leave the linkage on the throttle elbow, just maybe use a large wire tie to keep it out of your way (gently). Also, taking the hood off might give you some more head room, but I don't think that it's worth the headache of trying to get it lined back up correctly. I wouldn't take the hood off. Don't forget the gaskets. You might be able to reuse the metallic looking one that sits right on the intake mainfold, but I would not (NOT) suggest using any gasket sealer there. You'll make a big mess, and it's not necessary. Also, I would still stay away from screwing around with the DPFE or the EGR valve and hose. The DPFE is a bit expensive and the EGR is a little more of a pain to work on. Plus, this really is the first thing that you need to try

Good luck, I'll be redoing mine in a few weeks.

Tony

[ohio90bb]

Ohio90bb, good to hear that you'll be tackling it. I agree with what's been said, leave the linkage on the throttle elbow, just maybe use a large wire tie to keep it out of your way (gently). Also, taking the hood off might give you some more head room, but I don't think that it's worth the headache of trying to get it lined back up correctly. I wouldn't take the hood off. Don't forget the gaskets. You might be able to reuse the metallic looking one that sits right on the intake mainfold, but I would not (NOT) suggest using any gasket sealer there. You'll make a big mess, and it's not necessary. Also, I would still stay away from screwing around with the DPFE or the EGR valve and hose. The DPFE is a bit expensive and the EGR is a little more of a pain to work on. Plus, this really is the first thing that you need to try

Good luck, I'll be redoing mine in a few weeks.

Tony
Hey thanks Tony... I dug around under there and it looks doable... So this 4th holiday, we're moving into a new place. One day somewhere in the four days off, I'm going to tackle this. I'll try to get some snaps - not just for LOL but to help my aged mind remember how to put it back together. :D

Things are never easy but I'm really hoping scraping and cleaning the channels will take care of the problem. Only way to find out is to do it I suppose.

CHEVYGUY - Thanks for the snaps - yup, that's the ugly situation staring me right there in the face, right on LOL. :eek:

I've checked the hoses going into both those sensors and they look good - but that's not to say they aren't bad somewhere along the length of their tubing - but there's been no noticeable change in idle or driving which would present itself if a vacuum leak was present.

So, first I'll clean it and see what happens.

Again - thanks to everyone for their advice. I'm looking forward to this, in a strange, mechanically mystical way. :cool:

[Chevyguy]

I have done this twice and both times the metal gasket was re-used. Just be careful removing it and it should be fine.

Best tip is to unbolt that black bracket in the back, I fought with that at first. That just stays in place.

It is better to keep the TB attached and remove the linkage and TPS plug. Then you can remove the elbow/TB and get easy access to the EGR channel. Plus you can get all the gunk cleaned out of the intake elbow and TB while it's off.

[ohio90bb]

Okay - so in the middle of moving to a new place, work and a ton of other things, I finally got started this past Sunday.

Actually - taking it apart was rather easy... save for the one stupid bolt from the elbow (8mm) which was almost in my fat fingers but then decided it was not going to make things easy on me and :eek: it jumped ship! :eek:

Yup - stupid bolt fell down ONTO the engine block/intake manifold "valley" area. I could barely see the little scrapper... Oh, magnet, no problem... but yes, problem - it would NOT come out. Searched my mind for alternatives - tape, vacuum cleaner, SOMETHING but when I thought of going for it with very sticky tape on the end of a ratchet extension :eek: it was gone.

No amount of neck twisting, flexible mirrors on a stick, nothing could find it. It is as if a black hole formed, the little beggar jumped in and has left the known universe permanently. Did someone fire up the new smasher down in Tennesee?

The sadistic side of me thinks it quite possible it somehow leapt into the area currently containing the torque converter. But oh well.. at least :rolleyes: it didn't go IN the intake. Phew:cool:

NOW, Here's what I can say about it - it seems to me it should be quite possible to clean this channel out WITHOUT removing anything.

Once I got the "elbow" off and in my hands, I could see the problem. The PCV hose connects to the elbow and below it is another vac connection about the same size. The lower connection, IIRC, is the one that leads down to the channel.

Of course the one leading to the channel was plugged solid. And me without any sharp or pointed object (not allowed since I got released from camp last year :o) so I grabbed the handy-dandy PB Blaster and cut loose with it.

Wow - like a chainsaw through a bag of flour I mean to tell ya! Whoo hooo! Which of course, got me wondering....

Would the next person having a plugged EGR valve kindly pull the appropriate vacuum connection on a COLD engine, spray some PB Blaster in the connection (shouldn't hurt - its a petroleum-based product), let it sit for an hour or so then fire it up and see what happens?

As easily as the PB Blaster melted the crap in the channels (elbow and manifold channels), I have to believe some PB Blaster judiciously applied through the vacuum port that leads to those channels would melt/dissolve the crap blocking the channels just fine thank you, without the need to unbolt anything!

It would at least be worth trying - somebody, anybody?

So now all I need do is get a replacement bolt and hey, I'm getting a new gasket even though the old one came off easily and of course bolt it all back together.

Note: FoMoCo definitely over-engineered the brackets holding pieces to the elbow. The freakin' bolts are at least twice as long as they need to be and that is of course MHO. :cool:

I know, I just know one engineer turned to another and smiled as he said, "You know, I pity the poor guy who has to take this bracket off when the engine is still in the car." They both laughed and headed out for a couple of beers singing, "Our Job Is Done" to the tune of "Our Day Will Come"....