Check Engine Light On (Again)

[shoehorny]

Hey gang!

All of a sudden I've been having a hell'uv a lot of problems with my 1997 LTC Signature. Within the past year, I've experienced all of the following:
1. Check Engine Light - error code P0420 = bank 1 (pass. side catalytic converter).
2. Check Air Suspension - changed air shocks, solenoids, compressor, and dryer - still have the same problem. Comes on from time to time. Beeps drive me crazy when driving!
3. Dead battery - probably due to #2 above.
4. Gas line leak - due to grounding against the gravel driveway, probably due to #2 above.
5. Cracked Intake Manifold - plastic piece of sh#@&!
6. AC went out
7. Ball joints needed to be replaced.
8. Headliner needed to be replaced - got this done for $125 down in Bradenton Florida. Lots of shops all charge the same price.

Regarding the CEL, I've read that this is a common problem with the 97 LTC. I read in this forum that there is a powertrain control module that can be reprogrammed since it is set to sensitive. I checked with my local dealer and they never heard of this. The guy there suggested just changing the cat and O2 sensors. Where is a good place to purchase an aftermarket cat of a 97 LTC? I checked Summit and they seem to have a good replacement for $191.39 : http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=catalytic+converter&N=700+4294907910+4294907553+4294924744+4294745679+ 115+4294870702&Ntk=KeywordSearch (Part # CTO-4871). Has anyone put one of these in? Does anyone have a better recommendation?

Thanks!

Mike

[Dereck]

Hey gang!

1. Check Engine Light - error code P0420 = bank 1 (pass. side catalytic converter).


Regarding the CEL, I've read that this is a common problem with the 97 LTC. I read in this forum that there is a powertrain control module that can be reprogrammed since it is set to sensitive. I checked with my local dealer and they never heard of this.

Does anyone have a better recommendation?

Thanks!

Mike

Hi Shoehorny

Go to another dealer!

Or go back to the same one and ask him to look up TSB # 03-24-05 dated 12/08/03.

Regards

Dereck

[shoehorny]

Hi Dereck!

Wow your fast! I actually have that bulletin in front of me. It reads: "Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) on with diagnostic trouble codes (DTCS) P0420 and/or P0430."

The service guy I spoke to actually told me they do not do any chip programming. I had told him about the bulletin and he just said stop on in and they would take a look.

I should also point out I have 130K miles on the car. The engine is smooth! No exhaust smell or rattle of any kind underneath. I also checked the cat with an infared thermometer and it was no hotter than the rest of the exhaust.

What does the service bulletin call for anyway? Would the dealer replace a chip? Or is this a recoding thing?

And, if I do need a new cat, there are several different O2 sensors available - all with different wire configurations. Some have 1 wire, some 2, and some 4. What are these wires for?

Thanks again!

Mike

[shoehorny]

I just called another Lincoln dealer's service department (Flemington, NJ). The guy there said he never heard of this bulletin either. He also suggested I come down. "For $99/hr we will check out the problem and tell you definitely what is wrong".

[Dereck]

I just called another Lincoln dealer's service department (Flemington, NJ). The guy there said he never heard of this bulletin either. He also suggested I come down. "For $99/hr we will check out the problem and tell you definitely what is wrong".


Hi Shoehorny

Your local dealers are complete arseholes!

The dealer should just reprograme your PCM with the latest software and probably charge you a fortune to do it.

I would ALWAYS use OEM oxygen sensors as they are made for the car some aftermarket ones especially the universal type do not work.

The wiring just depends on the sensor type, there are also two different types of sensor with the same wiring.

Regards

Dereck

[LithiumCobalt]

I would ALWAYS use OEM oxygen sensors as they are made for the car some aftermarket ones especially the universal type do not work.

The wiring just depends on the sensor type, there are also two different types of sensor with the same wiring.

Regards

Dereck

Agree. Don't go for the universal fit unless you want to be splicing/dicing/soldering/heatshrinking all day. OEM or OEM replacements will have the correct plug already on it. Plug and play.

On another note, sounds like you have plenty to keep you busy with your Lincoln. Welcome to the club! We are all wrenching on ours quite frequently, too, but it is a joy and eventually you will get around the issues and be trouble-free for a while. Good luck and browse around/ask questions. If you have an issue with something or need something fixed, it's probably been addressed and or done by someone here sometime.

[shoehorny]

Thanks guys!

If I can't get the code changed, I will go with the OEM O2 sensors. I will also check out the OEM cat, if it is not a lot more expensive. So far this year, this car has set me back over $3K in repairs and it is still not 100% - I need to stop the bleeding.

I have to go to the dealer anyway to get my cruise control recall fixed anyway.

I read these boards all the time. I love it here!

By the way, I read on some other post that someone sells a chip that updates the program. Where can I pick that chip up? I did not find one on ebay or Google.

Thanks again!

Mike

[Dereck]

Hi SHoehorny

I have never known a P0420/0430 caused by a bad catalyst, I suppose it does happen <shrugg>

Regards

Dereck

[shoehorny]

Dereck,

Well, that's encouraging! :0)

What is involved with doing the reprogramming of the PCM anyway? Is this something I can do on my own (e.g., replace a chip). I saw an earlier post indicating they were once sold on ebay.

Thanks again!

Mike

[Dereck]

Dereck,

Is this something I can do on my own?.....


Hi Shoehorny

Nope! You need a bazillion dollars worth of dealer computer and the correct programme to load onto your PCM.

Regards

Dereck

[bojo68]

I'd consider the BOSCH non-oem sensors. Many american cars came with bosch sensors, but for those that didn't, they're better. The universal bosch sensors have an elaborate no solder method of splicing your existing pigtail on to the new sensor, and the last one I did was 130$ cheaper.
The reason you can't find a chip for your car is nobody rechips them, they reprogram them. 95 and back are the ones people rechip as they're not nearly as reprogramable.
Your cars record at the dealer should show whether or not it's had the update, and if it hasn't, I'd find a dealer that knew what is was and could do it. If they're to lackadaisical to know any better than that, no telling what else they'll miss.

[LithiumCobalt]

I'd consider the BOSCH non-oem sensors. Many american cars came with bosch sensors, but for those that didn't, they're better. The universal bosch sensors have an elaborate no solder method of splicing your existing pigtail on to the new sensor, and the last one I did was 130$ cheaper.
The reason you can't find a chip for your car is nobody rechips them, they reprogram them. 95 and back are the ones people rechip as they're not nearly as reprogramable.
Your cars record at the dealer should show whether or not it's had the update, and if it hasn't, I'd find a dealer that knew what is was and could do it. If they're to lackadaisical to know any better than that, no telling what else they'll miss.

When I told my Ford dealer that I could get a Bosch O2 sensor for $60 brand new at the auto parts store, the service department gladly sold me the OEM for $65 (retail OEM was $80-something.)

[LithiumCobalt]

So far this year, this car has set me back over $3K in repairs and it is still not 100% - I need to stop the bleeding.

Ditto. I've got about $1k into mine and still about another $700-800 to make it top notch. Might need a new tranny someday too, so that would be another roughly $1,700. They're good cars, just gotta keep up on maintenance, otherwise they will bite you in the ass.

[shoehorny]

I am certainly intrigued to do the software upgrade. I've burned many of my own EPROM chips before for other applications and I know it is no big deal - it only takes a few minutes to do. After speaking with two different dealers' service departments about doing a software update and each one of them saying they never heard of this before, I am looking for alternatives. There are only two other Lincoln dealers within 50 miles of me and I will give them a shout on Monday. The Ford Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marq have the same engines. Would a Ford or Merc dealer have this special software? That would make the job a LOT easier.

Not all OEM stuff is better. I know that from working on many cars in the past, and most recently with this LTC's cheap crap intake manifold - the OEM is made up completely of plastic!!! What were the engineers thinking? Light weight? The replacement I used had a reinforced metal section where it is prone to cracking.

Originally I was looking at the NGK O2 sensors sold by Summit.com. But then I was considering the direct fit Walker O2 sensors (these are OEM for Mark VIII). I can get these for $53 shipped. I will check with the dealer (if I can find one that can do the software upgrade). If the software upgrade does not work, I will switch out the O2 sensors. If the O2 sensors do not clear the CEL, then the cat will get swapped out.

Thanks again for all the help! I am not in a big rush to get this done as I use the LTC casually lately. Most of the time I drive my Ford F150. Both the LTC and F150 look mighty spiffy and I get lots of compliments! When I do get this resolved, I will report back here.

[bojo68]

No direct experience, but I'd think an on the ball ford dealer would be fine. They almost have to get the info from the same place, and with the higher volume are more likely to have invested in the equip to do it.
In fact at one time ford repair parts were guaranteed forever on any ford made vehicle. Kinda tends to suggest that ford dealers are equipped to deal with all their(domestic) products.

[LithiumCobalt]

I would say instead of throwing parts (and money) at the problem, figure out what the codes are, get a factory manual, which you can get for free some places and diagnose the problem that way.

[shoehorny]

I've had the car sitting around for the past couple of months. I used it a few times when my truck was being worked on. I spoke with a couple of mechanics from local shops who both told me basically the same story: The catalytic converters need to be replaced along with new O2 sensors. I have over 167K miles on my Lincoln and if I just replace the O2 sensors the same thing will happen shortly down the road.

Then, two weeks ago, I was at my buddies summer pig roast barbaque blast when I started to talk with some guy who owned a Linclon Town Car the same as mine. I started telling him about my troubles and he told me he was a lead mechanic for Lincoln for many years and he just retired last year. He told me the same thing as the other two mechanics: With the high mileage, the cats break down. He recommended I replace both driver and passenger side cats and 4 O2 sensors. (BTW - my LTC looked way better than his!)

So, I did some research and found both cats and sensors on sale via mail order. I received them and they look great. The O2 sensors are the direct replacement kind - plug and play - no wire cutting or splicing. It looks like it is going to be a very easy swap. I am going to have my local mechanic take care of it.

I will post back later to give more details about where I picked up the parts - after I get everything working again. See ya soon!

[shoehorny]

Hey gang!

I just wanted to report back results on my '97 LTC CEL problem. The car had been sitting around for the last couple of months collecting dust. Last weekend I decided to give her a nice wash, then get to work. I had bought both driver side and passenger side after market cats from a web dealer. After speaking with a local LTC mechanic, he suggested I change both of them at the same time (the car has about 167K miles on it). I also got the OEM O2 sensors from an independent distributor. It looked like it was going to be an easy job! Four bolts on either side and screw in the two O2 sensors on each side and plug the wires in. Yet, when I got under the car it was a totally different story - the nuts were rusted solidly in place - almost as if they were welded. Uh-uh. This was no job to be doing on my back under a car propped on jackstands. I brought the car to Pete's (Annandale Auto Repair). He turned the job down - too much work even for him! So, I brought the car to Floyd and he did the complete job. He had to cut off the old nuts and bolts, then drill new holes, and put in new bolts. He said it took him about 5 hours to complete the entire job....I'm glad I farmed it out.

I picked up the car this evening and it drives nicely. The CEL is off and has stayed off for the entire trip back from Floyd's. However, I checked the AVG MPG display to see if I would get better gas mileage with all this new stuff put in. I was shocked! I was only getting, at best, 7 MPG! This was in the city close to Floyd's shop. As I pulled away, I got increasingly better MPG readings. After I hit the highway, the readings went way up until I got home. When I reached my home, it read 22MPG - slightly better than it has been prior to replacement. (Prior to replacement, the best I was getting was about 20MPG). Question: Why did I get such poor MPG when I first started out? Do the new cats need to cook-in first? Any way, the CEL is off!

Thanks for the advice!

Mike

[Newave Dave]

Mike, were you looking at avg mpg or the inst mpg. You should average around 20 or so with a highway/ city mix. Take a look at the MPG thread at the top of the page.

[skinhead]

Your mechanic probably reset the battery causing the PCM to lose all its info, when you do that the mpg trip computer gets reset to zero, so you have to drive around for a while for it to adjust.

[shoehorny]

Hey gang!

Since I had ALL of my cats and O2 sensors replaced I am AVERAGING 23.7 MPG. That is 4.7 MPG increase prior to having them swapped out. (BTW - there are two cats on the driver side and two on the passenger side. There are also two O2 sensors on each side). The CEL has not come on since!

Have a nice day!

Mike

[ALPHA1906]

ill be replacing cats on my 96 exec soon...i get abt 22mpg now so cant wait until i install new cats and more o2 sensors. ill be getting new pads and rotors on friday, so cats are on the do list b4 christmas.