Axle shaft info. help

[LSRX101]

:idea:<this smiley refuses to be deleted.

I need 2 axle shafts for my 85 LSC. Should be simple enough, but...
My dealings with axles at the Dealer was limited to "I need these parts for (make/model/year/axle code...)" Without an axle tag for ID, I'm pretty lost. I also have no knowledge base for parts interchangability.

This car sat flat on the ground for 5 years before I bought it (long story, but I didn't know it at the time). Among other areas, rust crept into the rear axle seal area of both axle shafts. Once the car moved again under it's own power, the axle seals shredded. The seal area on both shafts is badly pitted after cleaning, so I'm pretty sure the shafts are junk. :(

I can get repair sleeves (Speedi-Sleeves) but they are $45 each and I can't imagine any good way to install them. If you've never seen one, they are thin steel bands that are pressed over a damaged seal surface to renew it and sealed in place with LocTite. They are very common for harmonic balancers, rear crankshaft ends, big truck ($$$)hubs, and other applications. You usually just tap them in place with a provided, single use "driver" cup and a hammer. They're a great product. On these axles though, there this looong shaft right in the way.:rolleyes: Great idea, but I don't think that's my solution here.

Anyway, while trying to research which axle shafts would interchange, I discover that the 85 (code 5, 3.27 pegleg) axle is likely not an 8.8 as I thought, but a 7.5. I've never heard of this animal. There's also the chance of 2 different spline counts? Additionally, I have the early Teves ABS (not really common ) so the tone rings are an issue. :willy nilly:

Am I stuck searching for axle shafts for 84-85 Mark VII w/ABS only?? Maybe even ABS T-Bird/Cougar or Turbo-Coupe of that era?
I "could" maybe use the shafts from my 84 Base VII (non-ABS) or the entire (190K mile, 3.08:eyebrow:) rear end, but those options really sound like opening up a whole 'nother can of worms.:idea:
It would be great if I could just press the tone rings onto my 84 axles which would just happen to have the same spline count. Previous experience with cars in general, and much personal grief, from my long lost twin brother Murphy dictates that it couldn't possibly be that easy. Could it?
Any thoughts?

[Drake_tr7]

Axle in the freezer and heat the sleeve, piece of cake...;)
(the axle code is on the door jam)

[2manymarks]

FWIW- I would consider finding a whole 8.8 assembly from a later model. Swap the whole thing in and you have a better selection of parts. Look for an "E" axle code and have a 3.27 Posi-Trac.

My "crash" parts list says 84-87 w/ABS axles are the same (no mention of 7.5 or 8.8). Then 88-90 are the same and 91-92 are the same.

All year axle bearings and seals are listed as the same part #.

[gadget73]

I'm reasonably sure all Mark VII used the 8.8 rear. You could pop the cover off and check the numbers on the ring gear to verify, or just measure the thing. If its a bit under 9", its an 8.8. The axle shafts themselves are probably the same too, or if they're not just stabbing a whole "new" rear in there is an option.

[2manymarks]

I'm reasonably sure all Mark VII used the 8.8 rear. You could pop the cover off and check the numbers on the ring gear to verify, or just measure the thing. If its a bit under 9", its an 8.8. The axle shafts themselves are probably the same too, or if they're not just stabbing a whole "new" rear in there is an option.

Crash sheet parts list shows 8.8 ring gear only from 86 on.

It definately shows the 7.5 in all 84, and possible in 85-90, although the reason why escapes me???

[LSRX101]

I'm reasonably sure all Mark VII used the 8.8 rear. You could pop the cover off and check the numbers on the ring gear to verify, or just measure the thing.

Good point, I've got it apart already. (duh).
After finding the damaged axles last night, I was so frustrated I didn't even think about that. Everything on this car has turned into a major PITA due to rust underneath. I cringe at the thought of trying to get the whole rear end out.

[LSRX101]

Axle in the freezer and heat the sleeve, piece of cake...;)
(the axle code is on the door jam)

That makes sense. You've done it this way?

[LSRX101]

Thanks for the input guys.
I really don't want to swap out the whole rear end. Because of the rust issues on the bottom of the car, I'm sure the trailing arm bolts will be frozen in place. Maybe if I had a lift, I'd think differently.

When I bought the car I had no way to see underneath. The price was right so I rolled the dice. It turns out the it was really rusty on the bottom from sitting on the ground. I was on the fence between repair/part out and decided to fix a few things to help make the choice.In addition to brake and PS lines, I've replaced a bunch of rusted/frozen/seized parts to make it driveable. I figured that, worst case, I could save all of the new parts for another Mark. This axle problem might be the issue that turns it into a parts car, though. It's a shame, the car looks, runs and drives really nice otherwise.

[Drake_tr7]

That makes sense. You've done it this way?

Yep, put many a bearing in that way too. It's a bit of a trick keeping a thin sleeve hot but conversley, the thin sleeve will expand a lot more than a bearing.

[LSRX101]

Yep, put many a bearing in that way too. It's a bit of a trick keeping a thin sleeve hot but conversley, the thin sleeve will expand a lot more than a bearing.

Cool. I've done this with bearings, ring gears, etc. Never thought about it for those repair sleeves though.

[PETE]

its a different part,but my grandfather,and dad did simular things with tractor blocks,and sleeves

[LSRX101]

Well. I decided to try the repair sleeves. I ordered them along with the axle seals.
I cleaned the seal areas up with a roloc disc, yikes are those things pitted where the 2 outer seal lips ride. The old seals didn't stand a snowballs chance after about 2 revolutions of the axle. (There are 3 lips on most axle seals, a dust lip, outer sealing lip and inner sealing lip.)

Just for S&G I test fitted the repair sleeves. They're about 1/8" too large in diameter. Hmm, Maybe I'll check the seals too. Same thing! The seal case is correct for the axle housing, but the diameter of the seal opening is too large. I'm sure glad I'm anal and didn't just tap the seals into place without checking them.
Time for another trip to the parts store after some research.

The diameter of the axles in the undamaged seal area is 1.498", so they're 1.5" axles. I'm concerned though, as they measure 1.494" and 1.495" where the bearings ride. I'm not well versed in straight roller bearings, but .003 and .004 of wear sounds like a lot to me. There's some spalling (? looks like tiny cracks)on the outer edges of the wear area. The bearing rollers look really nice, almost perfect surfaces with no galling, scratches, etc. Should I be concerned? I've never looked this close at an axle that wasn't either "like new" or completely destroyed.

I managed to read the info on the mangled ball of rust that was the axle tag. It's an S407-E axle. That can mean either:
-85 Conti/Mark VII 7.5" 3.27 Limited slip w/28 spline axles
-OR, 87Conti, 87-92 Mark VII 8.8" 3.27 Limited Slip w/28 spline axles.
Thanks for all of that useful info Ford!
I'll believe 3.27 gears. The door tag code and the axle tag code agree, as did my a**-o-meter when I drove the car.
The axle tag number claims it to be an LS differential. Unless the clutch pack is reeeeaally tiny, that ain't no LS diff in this car.
As for the 7.5/8.8 question, there is an A75 stamp that I recall means that it would be a 7.5" gear. A88 would be an 8.8" (I forgot to measure the ring gear tonight:o).

Here's a "Murphy" story for Y'all.
I Posted a while back about my trials replacing the brake lines on this car. "It Totally Sucked Pond Water" doesn't even begin to describe that job, and I've done miles of brake lines over the years on some really wretched cars.
I test drove this car around for about 100 miles locally until I noticed the axle seals were leaking. I then backed it into the driveway and parked it. The brakes were PERFECT.
Days ater, I pulled down the driveway (300'), turned around, then pulled into the garage to check the axle seals. I noticed a trail of fluid and the "Brake" lamp never went off.
Come to find out that most of the left rear backing plate had fallen off and, tethered by the ABS sensor cable and caught by the wheel, smacked BOTH the new LR axle brake tube AND the new ($40) caliper hose, piercing both!!:eek::eek: Murphy strikes again.

Ya know, I really liked this Mark VII when I bought (rescued) it. I don't name my cars or project human attributes onto them. I don't anthropomorphise animals or inanimate objects. I treat them all very well as the animals or machines they are and don't expect more from them than they are capable of. I'm a true sucker for both!. I knew there would be problems with this car due to sitting so long, I've been there before. With that said, It really seems like this car just plain doesn't like me. Every single time I turn a wrench on this car, something unexpected goes very wrong. I'm open to comments as to why.


Right now I'm picturing this ad in the local paper:
For Sale:.... 85 Lincoln LSC with 75K miles! Older silver repaint with lots of metallic. Solid body, nice interior. ABS works like it should, Air suspension good, springs look almost new. All new brake and PS lines. New (NAPA reman) PS and smog pump, new front calipers and hoses, rear brake hoses, radiator. "Only" needs rear axle seals and exhaust. First $1500 takes it home. (Pay absolutely no attention the man behind the curtain, err,..... to the nasty flaky rust on the bottom of the vehicle) .'
If not sold by xx-xx-08, a fuel soaked rag will be placed firmly into the fuel opening and lighted. Our local priest will be on hand to officiate the exorcism. Effigies of current politicians welcome.

[gadget73]

I've never used repair sleeves on axles. There are repair bearings that move the bearing inner surface out a bit so it rides on good axle. The Ford rears are sort of crap in this regard because the bearing rides directly on the axle, wearing grooves and causing spalling on the axle shaft itself. This makes them noisy and leaky. The repair bearings are more expensive than regular bearings, but they're usually quite a bit cheaper than an axle shaft. Depending on the condition of the axles, they might just work. The axles for my Towncar unfortunately are too far gone. The repair bearing has a seal built in, which rides further out on the axle shaft. Mine are too rusted up to seal properly.

I'm also anticipating bad axle shafts on my LSC. The rear is noisy, not in a gear-grindy sort of way, but in a 'really dead bearings' sort of way.

[JBLSC]

250 bucks for a set of custom moser axles...very strong=)

[demonswede]

To what extent can you use 7.5 driveshafts in 8.8 axles or vice versa?

What differs to the driveshafts?

[2manymarks]

To what extent can you use 7.5 driveshafts in 8.8 axles or vice versa?

What differs to the driveshafts?

(Sorry, I was carried away with "axles" and this is not the answer to your "driveshaft" question). FWIW, I see no reason the driveshafts would be different except possibly the TurboDiesel of 84-85 which had a different transmission.

See my posts above. My information is only from looking at the parts list and I have never done anything with them. The listing shows all axles WITHOUT ABS are the same and interchangeable, left and right #E5LY4234A.
In the models WITH ABS, the part number for 84-87 is the SAME as those WITHOUT ABS (above).
Then there is a different part number for 88-90, (#E8LY4234A) and for 91-92, (#F1LY4234A).
I believe the difference is for the mounting of the tone ring for the ABS sensor, but someone with "hands on" experience needs to confirm or deny.

[gadget73]

They did change the abs sensor and the rear brake assembly in 1991, so its probable the axle change is related to that. Never had the two apart, so I couldn't tell you what the specific change is, or if its backwards compatible.

[LSRX101]

[quote=gadget73;691665]I've never used repair sleeves on axles. There are repair bearings that move the bearing inner surface out a bit so it rides on good axle. The Ford rears are sort of crap in this regard because the bearing rides directly on the axle, wearing grooves and causing spalling on the axle shaft itself. This makes them noisy and leaky. The repair bearings are more expensive than regular bearings, but they're usually quite a bit cheaper than an axle shaft. Depending on the condition of the axles, they might just work. The axles for my Towncar unfortunately are too far gone. The repair bearing has a seal built in, which rides further out on the axle shaft. Mine are too rusted up to seal properly.

quote]

Gadget,
I'll bet a Speedi Sleeve (CR) or Redi Sleeve (National/BCA) would work on your axles in addition to the repair bearings. It would cover the rusted area that the new seal would ride on. The 99149 is almost 1/2" wide and can be installed to whatever depth is needed. There is another one, (99688?) that is narrower, 3/8" wide IIRC, if clearance to the bearing is an issue. (assuming 1.5"axles). With the cost of the repair bearings and Speedi Sleeves though, you might be better off sourcing a pair of axles. Can "good" used ones even be found?
PM me. I have a PDF chart of the specs and part numbers for the Speedi Sleeves to select the correct one. The CR and BCA part numbers are the same, I believe. They're about $40 each retail plus shipping, but I found the ones that I need for $21.00 each before shipping with a bit of searching.

[LSRX101]

They did change the abs sensor and the rear brake assembly in 1991, so its probable the axle change is related to that. Never had the two apart, so I couldn't tell you what the specific change is, or if its backwards compatible.

You are correct about the change in ABS axles. The bare axle shaft is probably the same as the early non ABS models, but additions/changes in the tone ring on that axle assembly led to part number changes as needed.
I'm not really familiar with the Teves ABS system used on the Mark VII except as a recent owner. My 85 has a really "fine" toothed tone ring, it looks like a wheel with narrow slots cut into it. I do know that later (early-90s and up Ford products) used a "coarse" toothed tone ring. It looked like a straight cut gear mounted onto the axle or rotor with definate "teeth" about 1/8" wide or so.

[gadget73]

Gadget,
With the cost of the repair bearings and Speedi Sleeves though, you might be better off sourcing a pair of axles. Can "good" used ones even be found?
[/QUOTE]

I bought a pair of brand new axles already. Dorman parts, ended up costing me $220 for a pair of brand new ones shipped to my door. Basically I'm just tired of fussing with it. I figure a pair of new axles will get me another 20 years. When these wear out, chances are good that I won't have the car anymore, or gas will be so expensive that I won't be able to drive it anyway. I fully expect to need a pair of axles for my Mark VII when I do the rear in it. Its got 223k on it, and its noisy. I'm sure they are not going to be any better than the axles in the Towncar were, and more than likely they're gonna be worse.

[LSRX101]

Dorman, huh? I'll have to look into that.
Thanks!;)

[demonswede]

If you skip the ABS, can you use any axle from 1984 - 1990 or even 1984 - 1992? - quite interesting for me on the Other Side of the World

[90LSC]

If you skip the ABS, can you use any axle from 1984 - 1990 or even 1984 - 1992? - quite interesting for me on the Other Side of the World

If you make certain both axles have the same tooth rings, all is well.

The ABS reads speed differences on the same axle, not front to rear or cross wheell or whatever.

SO, put a PAIR of axles from a doner car and you're OK.

[demonswede]

but what happens if i take a 1984 non-abs driveshaft on my 1989 M7 & I accept the lose the ABS feature - will it fit & I will have the car running?

Or if I take a 1988 driveshaft withn abs ring on my 1984 car without abs, will this work?

[LSRX101]

but what happens if i take a 1984 non-abs driveshaft on my 1989 M7 & I accept the lose the ABS feature - will it fit & I will have the car running?

Or if I take a 1988 driveshaft withn abs ring on my 1984 car without abs, will this work?

Mechanically, it should work either way. If you use non-ABS axles you will just lose the ABS. I just found out that Non-ABS axles aren't machined to accept the tone ring. I pulled a wheel from my 84 and looked.

[LSRX101]

My "crash" parts list says 84-87 w/ABS axles are the same (no mention of 7.5 or 8.8). Then 88-90 are the same and 91-92 are the same.

All year axle bearings and seals are listed as the same part #.

All of the parts stores and online sources agree with this. Unfortunately, the 7.5 rear end in my car doesn't.
The seals, bearings and repair sleeves listed for all 84+ Mark VIIs are too large in diameter in all respects. The Ford part numbers on the old seals crossed over to a mid 70s full size Ford. (The Ford number is F4xx-..., an 84 number).
There is no way this rear end has ever been swapped. The ring gear is a 7.5". Everything mounted to the axle housing is (rusty) original.

I misread the axle shaft diameter at the good seal surface. It's 1.398, not 1.498. I blew $50 on 2 Speedi-Sleeves that are .010 too big...DOH!! You can expand them a bit by heating, but does anyone know how to "shrink" them?:D Live and learn (over again). Measure twice, order once. I measured a few times, but forgot the basics of reading a caliper or micrometer that I learned long ago.


The worst part is, there is no repair sleeve available in the size I need. I have the CR Speedi-Sleeve and National Redi Sleve charts. They're identical except for the logo on top of the page. There is a +/- .008 gap right where that shaft diameter falls.:mad::mad:

Tonight I cleaned the shafts up with a roloc disk then polished them with emery cloth. They still looked ugly where the outer seal lip rides, but the inner lip surface looked nice. It's going back together Wednesday night, regardless. I have to keep moving forward on this car, Winter is coming and I avoid the garage when it's below freezing. (I've become a real Wuss in my middle age). We'll see what happens.

[demonswede]

I was worried about any diffence between 7.5 & 8.8 axles.