Engine swap question (Windstar?)

[ImTheJoker4u2]

I may have found a donor engine out of a 97 sable. would I be able to use that engine in my 92 conti?

[ALSLTCARTIER]

I don't think I would atempt that venture due to the fact a 97 Sable has a 3.0 and your Conti is a 3.8 . I think I'd look for a 3.8. After thinking about it I don't see why it wouldn't work. A 3.0 came in a 92 Sable/Taurus . I don't know why it wouldn't work in a Conti . I just don't know of anyone who has done it

[pro-five-oh]

You did not find a donor if it was a 1997 Sable. Try again. ;)

[ImTheJoker4u2]

I don't think I would atempt that venture due to the fact a 97 Sable has a 3.0 and your Conti is a 3.8 . I think I'd look for a 3.8. After thinking about it I don't see why it wouldn't work. A 3.0 came in a 92 Sable/Taurus . I don't know why it wouldn't work in a Conti . I just don't know of anyone who has done it

the computers would have to be swapped..for starters
so what was the merc equivilant to the conti (taurus being ford)
i thought it went (lowest to highest)
taurus
sable
conti
Im pretty sure the 3.8 was at least an option on the sable (according to wiki)

BTW i know the TC's will run a half million miles...whats the life expectancy of these 3.8's? i can pick up a 95 windstar with 147k and a shot tranny for $500

[Jim K]

You did not find a donor if it was a 1997 Sable. Try again. ;)


:rolleyes: hey pro would you recommend a 3.8l out of windstar?? tons of those lying around in junk yards. both are front wheel drive.

hey joker did your engine go south??

[ImTheJoker4u2]

:rolleyes: hey pro would you recommend a 3.8l out of windstar?? tons of those lying around in junk yards. both are front wheel drive.

hey joker did your engine go south??

the windstar is the next choice....
Its been going south since i bought it...thats why i laid it up for so long...Wouldent ya know it thu. the thing is frikin magic! The more i drive it the more problems just seem to fix themselves...except all that ticking and that loud banging coming from under the hood:rolleyes:The poor thing was pretty neglected when i got it (which explains the $250 price i paid for it) 4 out of the 6 plugs didn't even have electrodes left! I was hoping that it was just a few sticky lifters as it was an intermittent ticking. But it would knock at start up too. Now it pretty much knocks and ticks all the time. its got some power but not what it should have and there are definitely rings not doing their job. I really granny the hell outta it (like if it sees 3000 RPM its a shock). If i grow an extra one and put my foot into it, it spits the dipstick out and sprays oil onto the exhaust manifold. Makes for a nice smoke screen if I'm runnin from the :cop: but the speed just isn't there to match the stealthiness :cool:
That and I gotta smell burnin oil for the next 300 miles. So a swap is in order. It will be cheaper and faster than a complete engine rebuild. Ive looked into reman engines but they generally run about $1500 to start, and after buying the car for 250 and it needing a paint job as it is, that just seemed a little steep. Especially cause I'm barely scraping by week to week.:(

[MichiganTeddyBear]

as mentioned windstar is a good start.

yes, taurus/sable of similar vintage with a 3.8 would be a possible donor, but NOT a 97.. stay with a 88-94 if you go that route.

windstar is your best choice, and if you feel up to a little work, I believe the windstar 4.2 is a pretty easy swap for the 3.8 (see the modifided essex forum here for info).

with proper maintaince, you can get good life from a 3.8. their biggest problem was the head gasket issue from the iron block/aluminum heads.

[SignatureSeriesOwner]

I thought the weak point on these cars (other than the A/S) was the transmission? Thought the engine was fairly robust..

[MichiganTeddyBear]

the trans is weak. but probably the biggest 'complaint' or 'early failure' probably has to be the headgasket issue, which has long since been solved with proper maintaince, and the upgraded parts/service.

in the 'old days', if you got a 100k out of an engine, it was a miracle. then all at once, engines and cars started to get 100k as 'norm'. people got used to that with the rock solid engines (built on old tech, just improved manufacturing techniques). Then with the push for more milage (lighter weight engines was one way to help), the manufactures started putting aluminum heads on the engines to save a few pounds. the didnt do proper/enough REAL WORLD testing (note the real world), and found out that head gaskets didn't last as long as they did in the old tech stuff. Ford was a victim of this with the 3.8..
Most owners beat the crap out of the vehicle (figureing to get rid of it in 3-6 yrs), without proper maintainance. now, the 2nd or 3rd owner of the car is stuck with problems that originally started 3 years or more prior to them getting it. The head gasket issue was the killer for the 3.8's. they would eat a headgasket at around 100k if the cooling system was neglected (read this as either antifreeze not properly flushed at correct intervals, or the system was allowed to run low on coolant). the low coolant issue could cause air bubbles in the engine (the heads), creating hot spots that caused the head to expand more than the gaskets were designed to allow.

really the engine is solid as a rock, if the head gaskets dont let you down.

[Maranello]

Would be cool if someone could swap a dohc 3.0 in a conti

[MichiganTeddyBear]

well, get a 95 or later, they come with 4.6 dohc....

[pro-five-oh]

Im pretty sure the 3.8 was at least an option on the sable (according to wiki)

They ditched the 3.8 in 1996 with the new body changeover.

I think getting a later model Windstar motor (or better yet, the 4.2L from the Freestar) is a great idea for performance at a decent price. Its been discussed many times here (and in the archives).

[Maranello]

well, get a 95 or later, they come with 4.6 dohc....I don't care for those years, don't like the design. I like the essex design. I don't always want a V8 either, it's nice to be different and do something that wasn't done before.

[Jim K]

just wondering if joker does get an engine out of a windstar would be best to just pull the entire engine and transaxle as one unit and transplant it into to his conti.

:rolleyes: i am no expert but to me that would seem to be the easiest route to go.

[hrmwrm]

yes, if both the trans and engine are good, it's easier to drop the whole thing together and implant together. about the same amount of time for parts or whole.

[ImTheJoker4u2]

just wondering if joker does get an engine out of a windstar would be best to just pull the entire engine and transaxle as one unit and transplant it into to his conti.

:rolleyes: i am no expert but to me that would seem to be the easiest route to go.
Problem is that the cheap donors are usually towin bad trannys behind them. thats why the vehicle is goin for $500 or less. If it was a good runner Im sure it would cost me too much to be used as a donor:(
so heres a question i should get out here before i get too deep into this...Will the AXOD-E bolt up to a free/windstar 3.8 or the 4.2? or am i gonna have to get a whole unit to drop in?

[pro-five-oh]

Ok, so why are you replacing your engine? If you want more power, you will need to do more than just get a different motor. Computer, fuel, intake, exhaust are all needed. We need more info.


so heres a question i should get out here before i get too deep into this...Will the AXOD-E bolt up to a free/windstar 3.8 or the 4.2? or am i gonna have to get a whole unit to drop in?

I seriously doubt Ford ever changed the bellhousing on the V6. As long as you use a front wheel drive V6 (no Mustang engines) you should be fine.

DustyLBottom's posted a link to a website that discussed the 3.8L in detail, you should do a search for it. Also check out the TCCOA (Taurus Car Club of America) Forums if you aren't sure.

[ImTheJoker4u2]

Ok, so why are you replacing your engine? If you want more power, you will need to do more than just get a different motor. Computer, fuel, intake, exhaust are all needed. We need more info.



I seriously doubt Ford ever changed the bellhousing on the V6. As long as you use a front wheel drive V6 (no Mustang engines) you should be fine.

DustyLBottom's posted a link to a website that discussed the 3.8L in detail, you should do a search for it. Also check out the TCCOA (Taurus Car Club of America) Forums if you aren't sure.

it pretty much knocks and ticks all the time. its got some power but not what it should have and there are definitely rings not doing their job. I really granny the hell outta it (like if it sees 3000 RPM its a shock). If i grow an extra one and put my foot into it, it spits the dipstick out and sprays oil all over the engine.:(

so pretty much it is not far from being junk and its time to yank it and make it into furniture:cool:
Id like to do the 4.2 swap now that I heard about it...but i guess thats another thread. not to mention probably a little over my head technically. I guess my decision now is do I do the body work, or the engine work first? Or do I buy another car and put this one out to pasture for a future project?...decisions decisions decisions...I guess when it dies Ill have to make the decision LOL

[DustyLBottoms]

Here's the article Pro:

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar90134.htm

If you get a windstar engine then you're going to need everything with it; computer wiring harness...etc. With OBDII and variable intake manifold runner lengths it'd be hard to make it work. Plus the intake itself is too high to clear the hood on our Conti's

Here's what you need to do.

First, log in here:

http://www.v6power.net/

These guys have built plenty of 3.8s, you're going to need their collective knowledge.

Second, you'll need good parts for a built motor.

Late model Windstar block.
Stud girdle
etc.
Re-use your Conti top end with good portwork and a big-ass fuel rail.

Tom Morana can get you what you need, he can even build a complete engine for our FWD 3.8s

http://www.moranav6racing.com/

Best I can see, since there's not a lot of room under the hood, you'd need to ditch any thoughts of a turbo or supercharger unless you love fabrication work. Best bet is to stroke the heck out of it, maybe up to 4.4 liters. :cop: (Though, there is one guy who's managed to Supercharge is 3.8 Taurus....but after 3 years of work. It can be done....just not easily)

Anyway, easiest I can figure.

Build it, stroke it, chip it.

Oh, be sure to get a Jasper or custom built AXODE or AX4N tranny at the same time.

[ImTheJoker4u2]

If you get a windstar engine then you're going to need everything with it; computer wiring harness...etc. With OBDII and variable intake manifold runner lengths it'd be hard to make it work. Plus the intake itself is too high to clear the hood on our Conti's

Im pretty much looking for the cheap, quick, and painless as possible route. A strong good running engine would be 100% better than whats towing it around now. Ill worry about wasting rubber later :gears:So correct me if Im wrong but; even if I get a 91-97 windstar 3.8 Im still going to have to swap the computers, harneses, ect.? Add a hood scoop?:confused::eek:

[DustyLBottoms]

Im pretty much looking for the cheap, quick, and painless as possible route. So correct me if Im wrong but; even if I get a 91-97 windstar 3.8 Im still going to have to swap the computers, harneses, ect.? Add a hood scoop?:confused::eek:


Well, mostly.

If you're going to go through the trouble of getting a windstar engine, then you might as well get the later style for the strong block.

If you're not going to get a strong block, then I'd recommend just finding another conti engine. Did you read the babcox article yet? It has great info the year-to-year changes.

[ImTheJoker4u2]

Well, mostly.

If you're going to go through the trouble of getting a windstar engine, then you might as well get the later style for the strong block.

If you're not going to get a strong block, then I'd recommend just finding another conti engine. Did you read the babcox article yet? It has great info the year-to-year changes.


MOSTLY!!:eek:

Actually I did skim thru it..Definitely A useful knowledge base

Ill have to dbl check the babcox site again but, couldn't I use the stronger block and bolt my (*cough*ported) heads and intake on? If I ported the intake and the heads would I have to have the computer reprogrammed?

[DustyLBottoms]

MOSTLY!!:eek:

Actually I did skim thru it..Definitely A useful knowledge base

Ill have to dbl check the babcox site again but, couldn't I use the stronger block and bolt my (*cough*ported) heads and intake on? If I ported the intake and the heads would I have to have the computer reprogrammed?

It should work. But I haven't tried it yet. :)

Maybe ask the guys at v6power?

[Jim K]

I guess my decision now is do I do the body work, or the engine work first? Or do I buy another car and put this one out to pasture for a future project?...decisions decisions decisions...I guess when it dies Ill have to make the decision LOL

:rolleyes:
if it were me i would do the engine first i have pics of your ride and while it needs lots of work what good is it to have sweet looking ride that you can't drive:rolleyes:

our if your not to deep $$ into your current ride and looking around if you like the 88--94 conti's they can be found in good condition for less than $2k which is probably less than you would spend on fixing your up.

:rolleyes:decisions decisions decisions :rolleyes: :rolleyes: makes my head :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[DustyLBottoms]

Yeah, if you're going to do heavy engine work, then I'd do that first. Save the paint job until afterwards. It would suck to scratch up a nice paint job.

[ImTheJoker4u2]

:rolleyes:
if it were me i would do the engine first i have pics of your ride and while it needs lots of work what good is it to have sweet looking ride that you can't drive:rolleyes:

our if your not to deep $$ into your current ride and looking around if you like the 88--94 conti's they can be found in good condition for less than $2k which is probably less than you would spend on fixing your up.

:rolleyes:decisions decisions decisions :rolleyes: :rolleyes: makes my head :rolleyes::rolleyes:


I dont necessarily like the conti's...Its just wjhat I got. If I could trade it for a TC or a mark Id be THRILLED!!! Im not really a big fan of FWD anyway. That and gettin go fast parts for that 6 is a lot harder than for a standard 5.0 or 4.6. problem is that as it sits Id be lucky to get $100 for scrap. If I put say $500 for an engine I could probably get $1500 then use that towards a RWD car

[Jim K]

I dont necessarily like the conti's...Its just wjhat I got. If I could trade it for a TC or a mark Id be THRILLED!!! Im not really a big fan of FWD anyway. That and gettin go fast parts for that 6 is a lot harder than for a standard 5.0 or 4.6. problem is that as it sits Id be lucky to get $100 for scrap. If I put say $500 for an engine I could probably get $1500 then use that towards a RWD car

hey joker gotta be honest with you considering the current condition your paint is in and i think most of us have seen the pics, even if you dropped in a factory rebuilt engine in that ride i bet you would not get more than $800 bucks tops and they would still try and get you down to around $500.

lets face it nice and shiny dent free exterior with a clean interior wins hands down every time over an engine especially when it comes to an 88--94 lincoln they are not very collectible. so if your wanting a rwd lincoln try parting out whats good on yours ie interior rims etc you might get more money that way.

good luck and since your not in love with the car if it were me it would put it out pastor after selling everything i could off of it.

[MichiganTeddyBear]

Id be lucky to get $100 for scrap.

Throw that thing across Lake Michigan.. over here in Traverse City, I could probably get about 150 for it, right now, with prices even as low as they are (which is VERY low for scrap).

I just got 150 a couple weeks ago for my 92 'sploder... 4k lbs even.

[ImTheJoker4u2]

hey joker gotta be honest with you considering the current condition your paint is in and i think most of us have seen the pics, even if you dropped in a factory rebuilt engine in that ride i bet you would not get more than $800 bucks tops and they would still try and get you down to around $500.

lets face it nice and shiny dent free exterior with a clean interior wins hands down every time over an engine especially when it comes to an 88--94 lincoln they are not very collectible. so if your wanting a rwd lincoln try parting out whats good on yours ie interior rims etc you might get more money that way.

good luck and since your not in love with the car if it were me it would put it out pastor after selling everything i could off of it.


the paint may be shot (in places) but the interior is near mint..good seats, no rips/tears, good headliner, non stained carpets, all the floor mats, good working dash, everything works except the A/C and 1 rear window. I got people askin me to sell it for 1500-2000 all the time. The paint pics are just the worst spots (roof, trunk lid). from the side, except for the roof its nice and shiny. the hood is like a mirror (just look at my siggy;)). so is half the trunk lol! Its really not that bad of a car, and im sure if it ran right (read dont burn oil and sound like a jackhammer at start-up) i could get 2500 easy. Hell even the way it runs now i can squeal the tires off the light. though if i do i pay for it by smelling burning oil for the next 2 days:rolleyes:
She is a nice car, has a lot of good points, and I LOVE the ride. I just hate workin on it cause its FWD. It seems like everytime I go to do something on it, its a royal PITA. That and speed parts for the TC or the Mark are a dime a dozen and availible anywhere. Not to mention they seem to be a LOT more reliable as far as the engine/tranny go than the 3.8 with the AXOD-E.
The guy I bought it from said the tranny was recently rebuilt but it still pukes up some fluid every now and again. And it seems to slip between 1st and 2nd. Maybe thats just the way its tuned though, for a smoother ride, but it still worries me. I mean puking fluid is NOT normal behaviour from a tranny.
Maybe IF I can find a good windstar engine/tranny cradle to drop in out of a wreck Ill do that. I guess its all the wiring that scares me. My last engine swap (besides pulling the engine/tranny from a 95 lumina) was a big block 400 out of a 79 Firebird, into a 80 Camaro. It was pretty much a direct swap, plug n play, if you will. A Windstar swap entails computers, harnesses, wiring, and possibly some fabrication. I guess Im just hoping that Im not getting in over my head with this.:eek:
Unfortunately all the contis here are either running, or have long since gone to the crusher. Junk yards around here have nothing older that 97/98. they generally crush cars older than 10 yrs. Which baffles me. Arent the older cars the ones needing replacement parts!?!?:mad:

[Jim K]

the paint may be shot (in places) but the interior is near mint..good seats, no rips/tears, good headliner, non stained carpets, all the floor mats, good working dash, everything works except the A/C and 1 rear window. I got people askin me to sell it for 1500-2000 all the time. The paint pics are just the worst spots (roof, trunk lid). from the side, except for the roof its nice and shiny. the hood is like a mirror (just look at my siggy;)). so is half the trunk lol! Its really not that bad of a car, and im sure if it ran right (read dont burn oil and sound like a jackhammer at start-up) i could get 2500 easy. Hell even the way it runs now i can squeal the tires off the light. though if i do i pay for it by smelling burning oil for the next 2 days:rolleyes:
She is a nice car, has a lot of good points, and I LOVE the ride. I just hate workin on it cause its FWD. It seems like everytime I go to do something on it, its a royal PITA. That and speed parts for the TC or the Mark are a dime a dozen and availible anywhere. Not to mention they seem to be a LOT more reliable as far as the engine/tranny go than the 3.8 with the AXOD-E.
The guy I bought it from said the tranny was recently rebuilt but it still pukes up some fluid every now and again. And it seems to slip between 1st and 2nd. Maybe thats just the way its tuned though, for a smoother ride, but it still worries me. I mean puking fluid is NOT normal behaviour from a tranny.
Maybe IF I can find a good windstar engine/tranny cradle to drop in out of a wreck Ill do that. I guess its all the wiring that scares me. My last engine swap (besides pulling the engine/tranny from a 95 lumina) was a big block 400 out of a 79 Firebird, into a 80 Camaro. It was pretty much a direct swap, plug n play, if you will. A Windstar swap entails computers, harnesses, wiring, and possibly some fabrication. I guess Im just hoping that Im not getting in over my head with this.:eek:
Unfortunately all the contis here are either running, or have long since gone to the crusher. Junk yards around here have nothing older that 97/98. they generally crush cars older than 10 yrs. Which baffles me. Arent the older cars the ones needing replacement parts!?!?:mad:

i am just thinking about how things work here in california since 80% of the state is in areas that don't salt the roads or are right on the coast with lots of fog just loaded with salt air.

there are tons of 15, 20 25 years and old cars running around.

if you can find someone willing to give you $1,500 take the money and run. that just opinion and we all know what opinions are worth LOL:)

[ImTheJoker4u2]

i am just thinking about how things work here in california since 80% of the state is in areas that don't salt the roads or are right on the coast with lots of fog just loaded with salt air.

there are tons of 15, 20 25 years and old cars running around.

if you can find someone willing to give you $1,500 take the money and run. that just opinion and we all know what opinions are worth LOL:)

Believe me the thought is there.. the only problem is that its the only car here so it needs to be replaced that day..or we are a walkin:eek:

[ImTheJoker4u2]

OK so lemme get this straight....
1989 - ’95 FWD
Ford put a roller cam in the 3.8L in 1989, so they added four bolt holes in the valley for the lifter guides and three more holes in the front of the block for the chain tensioner. There was also a big boss added for a large hex plug that was located a half way back on the passenger side and two inches up from the pan rail. Some of the plugs had a small (10 x 1.5 mm x 1-1/8˝ deep) hole drilled and tapped in them for the knock sensor that was used in certain applications. These blocks were either E9DE or F1DE castings.

1996 - ’98 FWD
In 1996, the FWD 3.8L was upgraded to 200 horsepower and used exclusively in the FWD Windstar minivan.
The sides of the block were contoured around the cylinders, the bolt bosses on the sides were revised, the pan rails were wider, and the supports between the pan rails and the mains were much thicker. The deep, heavy duty, main caps like the ones that had been used on the supercharged engines were installed on this block, too. All of these changes were intended to reinforce the block and help reduce noise, vibration and harshness (NVH).
The F68E block that came out in 1996 was replaced by the F78E in 1997, but they were identical castings so they can be used interchangeably.

So lemme get this straight...
89-95 would be a plug and play with existing harnesses computer ect?
96-98 Id either need to swap out my heads, intake ect, or swap the cars harness computer ect, and possibly do mods to the hood:confused:

[DustyLBottoms]

I would jsut grab a late Windstar block, and use your current heads - etc.

[ImTheJoker4u2]

Just for future reference:


From http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/2393/rebuilding_the_ford_38l_engine.aspx

1988 FWD And RWD
Ford installed the 3.8L in its FWD cars in 1988, so they made an all new block that had the FWD bellhousing pattern on the back and different mounting pads on the front and on both sides. They also added a balance shaft to cancel out the primary vertical imbalance that was present in all of these engines. Both of these blocks are quite different than any of the previous RWD castings because the #1 main was moved back about .125˝, and the front of the block was inset by nearly .500˝ to make room for the balancer gears. There were also two bearing bores added above the cam for the balance shaft, one in the front of the block and one in the back of the block. The FWD block was a E8DE casting, and the RWD block was a E8SE. These two blocks are easy to tell apart because they have either FWD or RWD cast on both the front and the back of the block.

1989 - ’95 FWD
Ford put a roller cam in the 3.8L in 1989, so they added four bolt holes in the valley for the lifter guides and three more holes in the front of the block for the chain tensioner. There was also a big boss added for a large hex plug that was located a half way back on the passenger side and two inches up from the pan rail. Some of the plugs had a small (10 x 1.5 mm x 1-1/8˝ deep) hole drilled and tapped in them for the knock sensor that was used in certain applications. These blocks were either E9DE or F1DE castings.


1996 - ’98 FWD
In 1996, the FWD 3.8L was upgraded to 200 horsepower and used exclusively in the FWD Windstar minivan.
The sides of the block were contoured around the cylinders, the bolt bosses on the sides were revised, the pan rails were wider, and the supports between the pan rails and the mains were much thicker. The deep, heavy duty, main caps like the ones that had been used on the supercharged engines were installed on this block, too. All of these changes were intended to reinforce the block and help reduce noise, vibration and harshness (NVH).
The F68E block that came out in 1996 was replaced by the F78E in 1997, but they were identical castings so they can be used interchangeably.

1999 FWD
The 1999 FWD block was an XF2E casting that was identical to the ones that were used from 1996 through 1998. The bolt holes were all the same and this block still had the deep mains, so it can be interchanged with the F68E and F78E castings.

2000 FWD
The XF2E casting was carried over into the 2000 model year, but the deep main caps were replaced by the shorter ones. That isn’t a problem in itself, but it could create one in the field, because there are four long studs on the main bolts that are needed for the stamped steel windage tray that’s bolted to the bottom of the engine. There are four spacers that go between the main caps and the windage tray that move it down far enough to clear the crank and the rods.

2001 FWD
The 2001 FWD block is a 1F2E casting that has the short mains, but it has six studded main bolts that are used for the stud girdle that has a windage tray in the center. This girdle is much thicker than the earlier designs, so it clears the crank and rods without the spacers that were used under the windage tray in 2000. It may or may not be the same as the XF2E casting.