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  #1  
Old August 2nd, 2017, 01:19 PM
1980MarkVI 1980MarkVI is offline
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1980 MARK VI Needs Starting Fluid to Start

I have a 1980 MARK VI Givenchy with approximately 65,000 miles.
It recently sat for a year or so and the gas went bad.
Drained the tank and threw a new battery in and now it runs.

I had a problem at first where it would sometimes stall-out when the vehicle came to a stop, but I believe I fixed that issue by removing the EGR and cleaning it thoroughly with carb/choke cleaner. It hasn't stalled again, but I've only driven it shortly a couple times since. This may still be an issue.

Here's the big problem. It only starts when I spray a quick shot of starter fluid into the throttle body. If the car stalls out at a stop sign, it usually starts back up without starter fluid, but if it sits in a parking lot for 30 minutes to an hour, for instance, I generally need starter fluid to get it going. And it starts right up with the starter fluid too, no struggle, it fires right up.

If the car is sitting idle, and I stomp on the accelerator to go WOT, the engine chokes out, and almost dies. It recovers a few seconds later. It sounds like it's sucking in a bunch of air, I see the throttle plates open. I'm assuming there is a delay in getting the fuel it needs quickly for WOT. If I open the throttle slightly, putting my foot on the gas pedal a little bit to increase the RPM's at idle, and then go WOT, it generally responds just fine without choking out.

When I turn the ignition key to the ON position, I hear the fuel pump come on for a couple seconds.
I've tried doing that a few times in a row, up to 10 times, and then attempting to start it, but it won't start without starter fluid.

Around town and on the highway it drives and accelerates relatively smoothly.

Do you think this is a fuel delivery problem?
I believe I found a schrader valve on the fuel rail that I can hook up a fuel pressure gauge. It looks like I can unscrew the orange/brown cap (shown in the TBI pictures attached) and connect the gauge there.
What should my PSI be? I'm assuming it will be different for the following:
When the ignition is off?
When the ignition is in the ON position before starting, right when I can hear the fuel pump come on?
When I'm cranking the engine to start?
And finally at idle and WOT?

I was thinking it might be the fuel pressure regulator, but I hear those generally don't go bad. Could it be the injectors? Or the fuel filter?

What is the procedure for replacing those?
It looks like the fuel filter may be the screw on type, and I can't find those in stock locally anywhere, it's special order. See the fuel filter pic, is it screw on for this year? It's located on the frame, passenger side, around the rear wheel location. I'm going to take the red cover off soon and inspect further.

For the pressure regulator, can I remove that with a stubby screw driver without taking off the throttle body?

For the injectors, do I just unclip them and push down towards the intake to unseat them?

I'm assuming there is some fuel pressure when the engine is off, so what's the best way of relieving that pressure before removing any of these components (filter, regulator, and injectors)? Putting a rag around the schrader valve and spraying fuel into it? Or can I just unscrew the fuel filter, and quickly screw another one on without getting doused?

I could also be way off in my fuel delivery assumption. Where would you start?
I can't find parts online for a cold start temp sensor, so I'm assuming there is none, but I do see that there is a crankshaft position sensor. Is that easy to replace? I have no idea where it is located on the car.
But would the crankshaft position sensor really need to be replaced if starter fluid does the trick?

I really appreciate your advice, thanks again for your help.
-Gavin
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File Type: jpg TBI_above.jpg (58.4 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg TBI_Side.jpg (53.5 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg fuel filter.jpg (38.9 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg Lincoln Rear.jpg (80.6 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg Lincoln Side.jpg (57.0 KB, 16 views)
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 02:16 PM
1980MarkVI 1980MarkVI is offline
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I forgot to mention, it's got the 5.0 TBI 302 engine.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 05:04 PM
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dumb question but do you have good strong spark while cranking? You should have a blue-white spark that will jump an inch. The ignition system has two power paths. Key-on ignition comes through the ignition switch like you'd expect. This goes dead in "start" position. Power for the ignition comes off the starter relay through the I terminal when cranking. It also bypasses the resistor wire. If for some reason its not doing this, you may not have enough spark to light off a normal fuel mix, but it will kick off the ether. A bum coil could do similar things. Engines will run on weak spark, but its much harder to start them with weak spark.

Crank sensor is fairly easy to replace. I think its 1 bolt. Lives down on the passenger front side of the engine, right up by the crank pulley. Find the thing with a wire next to the balancer, that's the crank sensor. No crank sensor action means no spark and no fuel. Thinking this may be OK, but possible its marginal.

I think 1980 only did have a spin on fuel filter. You've probably got the one year tubular upper control arms too, and the Frigidaire AC compressor. Its a first year Lincoln thing.

If you let the car sit overnight or at least a few hours the pressure will bleed down on it's own.

regulator can probably unscrew if you have a short enough screwdriver but they rarely go bad. Check the pressure, that will tell you whats going on. Unless its much different than the multiport models, somewhere in the 35-45 psi range is about right. Its possible these ran higher though, not super well versed on the early CFI.

I don't remember exactly how those injectors come out. Somewhere in the back of my head I'm thinking there is a retaining mechanism. If they had nothing to hold them, the fuel pressure would just push them out.

Does the high idle system work? Its mechanical and driven off the hockey puck on the side of the CFI unit. It has a high idle cam that drops in to help cold starts. You're supposed to pump the pedal once to set it before cranking. It often gums up and either won't drop in or won't pull out, depending where it stuck. A flush with carb cleaner usually will free it up.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 12:57 AM
1980MarkVI 1980MarkVI is offline
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Thanks for responding so quickly. I have not tested the spark while cranking, I'll give that a shot tomorrow.

Funny you mention the starter solenoid, I don't have anything coming off of the I terminal. I do have the ignition switch going into the S terminal and nothing going into the I. I looked at previous pictures of the solenoid from a couple years ago and nothing's in the I terminal either. I also recently swapped starter solenoids about 6 months ago and they both seem to work.

I did just go for a drive to get some more real world data!
So of course I needed starter fluid to get it going initially. Let it warm up for 15 minutes, then drove for another 15. Went to Costco for 20 minutes, came out and then tried to start the engine again. Needed starter fluid to get going. Drove 10 minutes to another store. Went shopping for 15 minutes. Came out, needed starter fluid again. Ugh, it's dark out already. OK, drive home, about 15 minutes. Pull in the driveway, turn the car off. Wait a few seconds and try to turn it on. No go. I need that starter fluid! Even if the engine is warm and I turn it off and try to turn it back on. Every time, starter fluid was needed.

I attached another picture of my gorgeous engine bay . This one has the choke/ high idle cam in view. I sprayed it with choke cleaner and that didn't seem to help. But I can tell you that when the car starts the high idle comes on, and it kicks down easily to a nice idle when I tap the throttle. Looks like there is a sensor where the linkage is going into the throttle plate, another plug going into the choke, and of course there's also a vacuum line.

I should have some more developments tomorrow night. Thanks again for your help.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 04:37 PM
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the sensor is the throttle position sensor, and the choke wire comes off the alternator stator wire to cause it to heat while the engine is running.

On later models if the TPS fails in a specific way, the computer will not give any fuel and it won't start. I don't know what the proper voltage is on the earlier ones to check it though. EEC-IV cars go into "flood mode" if you put your foot down. I don't know if EEC-III has that or not.

sounds like the choke works properly. Vaguely possible the 80-83 ignition system got it's power in crank mode elsewhere, but 84-85 had the connection to the I terminal. 86+ taps it out of the wiring going to the S terminal, so its possible thats where it comes from on the early ones. Either way if it sparks strong when cranking its getting power from someplace.
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Old August 4th, 2017, 12:04 AM
1980MarkVI 1980MarkVI is offline
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I tested for spark this evening. Pulled a wire and stuck in a screwdriver. I got a decent spark going between the screwdriver and a piece of metal on the car. It was an inch long or so, but the color was probably on the orange-white side, not blue-white. It was also sparking between a rusty bolt and a random screwdriver I stuck in the wire. Does this sound good?

I'm not really smelling any gas when I'm attempting to start the engine. I got a fuel pressure gauge coming in tomorrow, I'll post results as soon as I can.

I can't find a TPS part online for my vehicle. 1980 Mark VI 5.0. Is it also called something else or am I missing something?

Thanks!
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Old August 4th, 2017, 12:08 AM
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its a throttle position sensor, often just called by the acronym. Its not impossible that its electrically the same as the later one, but I think the plugs are different. If its electrically the same you could splice the connector if it came to that.

Spark is probably OK. Important thing is that it be able to jump a good gap and not be feeble. Also the fact that you have spark while cranking rules out any sort of obvious wiring issues.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 09:55 PM
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I would change the fuel filter, it's a maintenance item anyway and then get a gauge on the fuel rail, the pressure should be in the mid 30's PSI. It sounds fuel related to me.
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Old August 13th, 2017, 11:50 PM
1980MarkVI 1980MarkVI is offline
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I've made some progress! I replaced the distributor cap and rotor. The notch/key on the rotor was worn down and the plastic was cracked. I also put 8 new spark plugs in.

I tested the fuel pressure at the fuel rail schrader valve. It's perfect, 35-40psi and holds nicely.

I ordered a replacement fuel filter. Trying to find one that fit was a pain. I ordered the WIX 33359, and it came damaged. It has a huge dent in it, so now I'm just waiting for the replacement to come in. I'm 99% sure that's the right part.

I also picked up two remanufactured fuel injectors for $7 each!
I tried swapping them out today but I ran into a problem. It appears that the fuel injectors are sitting in a metal ring that's attached to the throttle body. Please tell me there is a way to remove the fuel injectors without taking the whole throttle body off! See the attached picture. I drew blue arrows pointing to the metal ring that's holding one of the injectors in. It looks like there are two metal rings, one for each injector, that are attached together in the middle. Kind of like eye glasses minus the ear pieces. Both fuel injectors sit in those rings and it does not appear to be easily removable.

In other exciting news, I can get the car started without starter fluid now. It does take an awfully long time... lots of cranking. I figured out that if I hit the gas pedal when it sounds like it is almost going to start, it helps get it going.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 02:58 PM
1980MarkVI 1980MarkVI is offline
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Any thoughts on the removal of the Fuel Injectors?

The car has now failed California SMOG.
The #'s were good at 15MPH (passed) but at 25MPH it failed miserably. Does that tell us anything?

I ordered a new oxygen sensor. Looks like there is just one located at the exhaust manifold, right? Nothing by the cat or hidden somewhere else?

Hopefully all this maintenance, a new O2 sensor, and driving it will get it to pass smog.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 07:32 PM
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What did it fail for exactly? Without that, pass/fail means very little.

Not sure how those come out, but something tells me the CFI unit probably needs to come off. I've never done it, hopefully someone has.

http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-...injectors.html

basically says remove it and you take it apart from the bottom.

One oxygen sensor, passenger side rear. Single wire.

Have you ever checked it for codes? Its extremely limited what it can even tell you but its not impossible it will give some info. I seem to recall some goofy trick about having to pull vacuum on the B/MAP sensor to get it to go into code scan mode, but not ever having lived with an EEC-III car I don't know the particulars. Last one I was standing next to had been converted to the later SEFI system. It was an 81 Mark VI coupe, and I saw it just this weekend. The other had an HO swap, and I saw that one this weekend as well. They may be the only two Mark VI on the planet that don't have these goofy problems.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 05:41 PM
1980MarkVI 1980MarkVI is offline
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It passes the NO test but fails the CO and HC.
It's just today failed for the second time.
Here's the latest results

@ 15MPH HC = 222 (MAX allowed=187)
@ 15MPH CO = 5.5 (MAX allowed=1.23)

@ 25MPH HC = 564 (MAX allowed=155)
@ 25MPH CO = 6.11 (MAX allowed=1.03)

Before giving the car a tune-up it was at least passing the 15MPH test (but still failing the 25MPH).

So far I'm getting that it's running really rich.
I hear that I should check my MAP sensor.
Is it the frequency or voltage type?
Anyone know how to test this one?
I think it has 4 pins, and I'm not quite sure which one is the signal wire.

The good news is that it's running really smoothly now.
The bad news is that I'm now a couple weeks overdue on a passing smog.

So far I have done the following:
-Drain gas tank
-New Fuel Filter
-New Battery
-New spark plugs
-New Distributor Cap and Rotor
-New O2 Sensor
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 07:43 PM
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There are actually two sensors in that assembly, a baro sensor and a map sensor. I believe it will have two signal wires, as well as power and ground. Don't know which is which. I believe its a frequency type too, though not 100% on that. Later EEC-IV was frequency, EEC-III I'm not so versed on.

Make sure the vacuum line to the sensor is good before you get too far. Any vacuum leaks that affect the signal the MAP sees will make it run rich.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 11:48 AM
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You have to take the whole throttle assembly off(4 bolts and disconnect the linkage), turn it over, and i think there are 3 Phillips screws that will separate it into 2 parts,then there is a big Allen bolt that holds that ring in. your gonna need new gaskets too, a big one for the bottom and one between the 2 pieces of the throttle body.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 11:15 PM
1980MarkVI 1980MarkVI is offline
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Got it! I figured I'd have to take the whole throttle assembly off.
I'm going to put the fuel injector swap off until I can get the time to do that, the fuel injector cleaner I ran through the tank seems to have done the trick for now.

Back to my running rich condition...
I've been eyeing the MAP sensor.

It's got 4 wires. I found the positive lead is running around 9.4V with the car off. I got an OK ground to the ground wire. That leaves me with two signal wires, assuming one for the manifold pressure and one for barometric. Now I'm under the impression that the Ford signal wires should emit a frequency when the key is in the ON position?
Both signal wires are giving me 0 Hz. The wire closest to the baro inlet is giving me 7.6V and the wire closest to the manifold inlet is giving me .015 - .02V.

Anyone know if I should be measuring the signal wires in V or Hz for the 1980 MAP? I got a hand vacuum pump coming tomorrow. I'm going to post my results once I start increasing the vacuum on the manifold port.

This site shows the Ford MAP should be outputting around 152Hz at 0Hg, but this may just be for more modern cars.
http://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/for...e-map-sensor-1
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Old August 25th, 2017, 11:43 PM
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Here's some good info, if you scroll to the bottom of the thread:

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthre...great-at-speed

Here's an excerpt from a book going over EEC-III:

https://books.google.com/books?id=-9...page&q&f=false

Both links say that the vent and manifold signal wires should be between 7.5 and 8 volts when the engine is off but the ignition is in the ON position. Since one of my MAP signal wires tested at .01V, I'm going to say my B/MAP is bad. I ordered a new one, should hopefully have it in a few days.
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Old August 26th, 2017, 09:21 AM
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that could do it. Engine load calculations are done mostly off the MAP. Low vacuum = high load = lots of fuel. If the MAP is bad and the ECM is either ignoring it or thinks you're trying to go up the side of a mountain all the time that would also mess with things pretty seriously.
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Old September 1st, 2017, 02:38 PM
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I'm trying to remove and replace my TPS and I'm running into a little difficulty.

I can't seem to get the Choke Arm off of the Throttle Shaft.
The choke arm ends up hitting the back of the choke assembly before it can slip off the throttle shaft. You'll see by my attached picture that when I pull off the choke arm (indicated by the blue arrows) it hits the back of the electric choke. I tried lifting the lever up and it doesn't quite get out of the way.

It looks like I have two options. Physically bend the choke arm to get it off, or remove the whole choke assembly. I'd rather not do either of those if possible. Is there a better way?

If I do have to take apart the electric choke, I'm assuming I just have to mark it's position, unscrew the (3) screws and then after I take the coil out, I'm guessing that there is a screw inside there that is holding all the linkage onto the back of the choke (indicated by my red circle and question mark on the attached picture). Of course I'd rather not take this all apart if I don't have to since I want it to all go back in the way it came!

Finally, is there any trick to getting the TPS to align nicely with the throttle shaft? I think I heard to rotate it clockwise into place so it grabs. Of course my new TPS looks different. Wires coming out the bottom right, but the wiring harness connector is the same at least. I believe I'm aiming for around 1V or a little less when the ignition is ON but the car is not running. My current TPS is registering 9+V in that position and doesn't change at all when the throttle is pressed.

THANKS!
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Old September 1st, 2017, 05:29 PM
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will that arm rotate and clear the back of the choke heater if you move it or move the throttle lever? I sort of remember doing this once quite some while ago but I really do not remember how it comes out of there. It does of course, but thats all I remember for sure. I do remember it being annoying.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 10:41 AM
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I pulled off all the pieces to the electric choke heater including the linkage on the back and was able to pull off the choke arm to be able to remove the TPS. The new unit is giving me 1-1.1V at a closed throttle, a huge improvement over the 9V I was getting before!
The car now starts instantly, vs. the struggle I was having every time.
I believe the TPS was telling the computer that I had the pedal to the floor, and I was trying to clear a flood, so it wasn't giving me much gas when I was cranking it. And the car revs perfectly smooth now. There used to be a stumble at idle when I floored it.

Do you think having a bad TPS that was telling the computer I was constantly at WOT would cause the failing emissions testing? I really don't want to think of replacing the cats, I'm in California and they are expensive. My NOx tests fine, so maybe that's a good sign that that the cats are still ok...

On a side note, it actually looks like my original B/MAP sensor was fine, I just didn't have a good back-probe when testing. I got the new one on there for good measure, so I now have an extra one of those in the trunk to go along with all my other extra parts.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 04:22 PM
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If the idle voltage was full reference, the ECM thought you had the pedal down so it was doing the "flood mode" start. Basically that just means it gives no fuel while cranking, which would jive with the problems you had. I expect a good TPS would also fix other running issues.

Bum TPS might make the fuel mix go stupid. The ECM has very little input from the engine, and the TPS is one of the important ones. Without that it has no idea what you're doing with the pedal. If it thinks you've got your foot down all the time it may be adding fuel for the expected acceleration. Extra fuel makes for high HC and CO.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 11:31 PM
1980MarkVI 1980MarkVI is offline
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I got some good news and some bad news.

I'll start with the bad!
The Lincoln failed SMOG for the 3rd time in a row.

The good news...
The HC and CO are now PASSING, and prior to all this work, they were failing miserably.
But now, the NO is failing, where previously it was passing just fine.

To recap, here's my emissions results from the time before last:
@ 15MPH HC = 222 (MAX allowed=187) FAIL
@ 15MPH CO = 5.5 (MAX allowed=1.23) FAIL
@ 15MPH NO = 122 (MAX allowed=1262) PASS

@ 25MPH HC = 564 (MAX allowed=155) FAIL
@ 25MPH CO = 6.11 (MAX allowed=1.03) FAIL
@ 25MPH NO = 79 (MAX allowed=1122) PASS

And now the latest:
@ 15MPH HC = 77 (MAX allowed=187) PASS
@ 15MPH CO = .01 (MAX allowed=1.23) PASS
@ 15MPH NO = 2012 (MAX allowed=1262) FAIL

@ 25MPH HC = 56 (MAX allowed=155) PASS
@ 25MPH CO = 0.00 (MAX allowed=1.03) PASS
@ 25MPH NO = 1085 (MAX allowed=1122) PASS (barely)

Alright, so we fixed the running rich condition as the HC and CO are now under control (thanks to the new TPS!)
But now the NO has gone wild.
What would cause the flip?

So I've personally attacked the EGR system, trying to find a fault.
(I also cleaned the EGR valve about a month ago, so this is all familiar) I re-cleaned the EGR valve, although it looks OK, and the diaphragm holds vacuum nicely. I tested the output of the signal wire on the position sensor, and it's reading about 1.5V when the EGR is closed, and open it's between 8 and 9V. Reference wire and ground tested good. It takes about 4 mmHg of vacuum to fully open the EGR valve by the way. I'm not sure how the passages going into the intake are, but the holes are pretty big so I think they are somewhat OK. There's no gasket though, so that's strange, right? (And it's passed smog for the last 10+ years without one, so maybe it doesn't need one) So then I moved over to the solenoids. I tested the resistance of both, I'm getting about 45ohms if I remember correctly. They click on when I apply 9V to them. I also tested that the valves are working by blowing into them while powering the solenoid to ensure that the air flow starts and stops accordingly. I vacuum tested the lines, everything seems fine there. I did clean the contacts on the solenoids as they were slightly gunky but probably fine in actuality since they are pretty well sealed.

So now I think the plan is to get the engine nice and hot so the EGR valve opens, and then test the voltage on the sensor, to make sure it is opening all the way, right? And I can test the voltage while the car is in park, right? I just need to increase the RPM to 2000 or so?

I'm hoping the running-rich condition I had prior didn't fry the cats, but I only drove on it like that for 100 miles or so. Since the HC and CO are good does that mean that the cats are most likely OK?

What else am I missing?!
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Old September 14th, 2017, 05:36 PM
1980MarkVI 1980MarkVI is offline
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Thinking aloud here, maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.
Let's say the EGR system's fine, because so far it's checking out, and it hasn't had a problem as of recent.

Maybe the problem is with the TPS.
Before I put the new TPS in, it was running super-rich, now it's running really lean.
My Lambda score before the TPS replacement was .82 and .89 and now it's 1.19.
http://www.smogstats.com/lambda_cat.aspx

A lean condition is going to cause NO to be high. Maybe I just need to adjust the TPS some? Could the TPS have that much of a bearing on the air-to-fuel ratio?! I had it dialed in at 1.15 V I think at idle, which from what I read is on the high side of things (which you think would make it run richer). Maybe if I bump that up or down I can see what the results are?

I'm going to try to pull the codes off of the ECU tonight. I did have a test light hooked up as part of the procedure, but it would always stay lit up? I went out and got an analog voltmeter, hopefully I can tell by the needle sweeps what the codes are. Then maybe I can use codes 41 (fuel control system always lean) and 42 (fuel control system always rich) and 23 (Throttle position sensor shorted, open
or out of range) to help dial in the TPS voltage and therefore the A/F ratio?
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Old September 14th, 2017, 05:39 PM
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gadget73 gadget73 is offline
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NO is usually an EGR problem. If you apply vacuum to the valve, does it make the engine stumble and run badly? If not, you may have blocked passages inside the intake. If it does, it could be that there is a vacuum problem that causes the valve to not open, or the control solenoid may have failed. I would seriously be looking at that before you get into TPS tweaking.
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91 LSC SE, triple black, 2.25" exhaust by United Exhaust, Holley SystemMax 1 lower intake, 246k and counting
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  #25  
Old September 14th, 2017, 05:52 PM
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padroo padroo is offline
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I don't know your car but do you still have to use starting fluid to get it to start? If you have spark and you have to use starting fluid to get it to start, that is about as lean of a condition you can have.
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