Dealer repair bill

branflake12 · #1 October 29th, 2009, 03:38 PM

Hey guys.
The LS has been "knocking". I have an extended warranty, which has already paid for itself.

I took it to the same dealer i always do. I also noted the ABS and Trac lights had come on in the past. That was a mistake. Turns out the knocking was caused by "carbon build up" from using 91 octane and that lower octane would do this to a lesser extent, albeit at a performance loss.

Their solution: new plugs, fuel system flush, fuel filter. $808. Since my exteneded warranty views this as a "maintenance" issue, it is not covered. Im out the $989 for the diagnosis aleady and another $98 for the ABS diagnosis. That came back as wheel speed sensor and center hub. For $2 more, they will fix it and the warranty company will take care of it. That ill do, since im already sunk.

Question: anyone else had this? will new plugs be a solution? Any of those pour in fuel system cleaners actually work? Time for a Nissan?

Thoughts appreciated.

Brandon

nevadarooster@yahoo.com · #2 October 29th, 2009, 04:17 PM

When I worked for GM years ago they had problems with carbon build up. There is an additive that GM makes, you pour down the carb, that will give away my age. You slowly pour it down the carb and the last bit you pour to kill the engine. Let the car sit for an hour then drive it hard and you will be all set to go. It always worked for me. Mel

branflake12 · #3 October 29th, 2009, 04:21 PM

Pour it down the what?

Do they make such a product for this little 3.0L V6?

DaKat · #4 October 29th, 2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by branflake12

Pour it down the what?

KStromberg · #5 October 29th, 2009, 05:55 PM

[QUOTE=branflake12;740627]Pour it down the what?

I don't think he means for you to drink it.

Fordace · #6 October 29th, 2009, 07:04 PM

you need a carbon blaster........

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...K%3AMEWAX%3AIT

MM90 · #7 October 30th, 2009, 09:13 AM

Daily driver?
How many miles on the car?
How long since last inspection and/or tune up?
Does it not get driven very far or not enough long drives to knock out the carbon build up?

branflake12 · #8 October 30th, 2009, 02:33 PM

Daily. 47K. Work is 3.2 miles from home, barely ever gets to the middle of the Hot-cold before i shut it off. Rarely (twice a month?) goes over 40 mph. Also using 91 octane...

Would something like BG fuel cleaner+regular gas+blasting the cobwebs out help?

branflake12 · #9 October 30th, 2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fordace

you need a carbon blaster........

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...K%3AMEWAX%3AIT

How do you use that thing?

branflake12 · #10 October 30th, 2009, 02:36 PM

[QUOTE=KStromberg;740639]

Quote:

Originally Posted by branflake12

Pour it down the what?

I don't think he means for you to drink it.

I would have to assume so. Never owned a carb'ed car. Only one i ever drove was back in high school (circa 2004) when i was detailing. 56 Thunderbird. Red.

KStromberg · #11 October 30th, 2009, 05:23 PM

[QUOTE=branflake12;740709]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KStromberg

I would have to assume so. Never owned a carb'ed car. Only one i ever drove was back in high school (circa 2004) when i was detailing. 56 Thunderbird. Red.

Nice

branflake12 · #12 November 1st, 2009, 08:58 PM

Ok, so I decided to not have ford do the repair, to try finding some BG fuel cleaner or shop around for price. I picked it up today, and filled it up with 87 octane and some higher end fuel cleaner from advance auto (not sure on the name) Soon as i started driving, the check light came on FLASHING and it shook terribly at idle, wouldnt accelerate and wouldnt maintain speed with even foot pressure. Took it to a sears to have the CEL code: #6 Misfire (in the first 1000 RPMs).

It wasnt doing anything near this bad thursday when i took it in...what in the world could have happened? Could the dealer have "done something" to make sure I needed to get it serviced? I should have learned my lesson the first time with this dealer, but I wouldnt put something shady past them. could the 87 octane do it? or having that bottle of cleaner goop in it?

It was driveable and behaved normally last week...now I fear it will shake itself apart or blow a gasket or something just at idle....

Thoughts?

Desert Stallion · #13 November 3rd, 2009, 01:48 PM

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the LS have a '91 octane recomended' engine, both of them? Curious why the dealer would blame 91 octane for the carbon build-up and not your short drives...

Still, a #6 misfire sounds like you've lost spark to that engine, and I'd be curious to know if the dealer did in fact pull the plugs out for inspection, and when reinstalling didn't install the COP properly or maybe even damaged it, or the connector is loose, etc.

Definitely sounds like a spark issue though.

branflake12 · #14 November 3rd, 2009, 06:49 PM

I felt the same way about the 91 octane...i mean its a high compression engine and it says 91 on the gas door.

Is there anyway I can check for plug seating and COP (?) on the #6? Looks like the plug is pretty far down there.

Desert Stallion · #15 November 3rd, 2009, 07:15 PM

Unfortunately the only way to inspect it is to pop the beauty cover loose (if yours has one), unbolt the COP, pull the connector and pop the thing off the head, then get yourself one of them sockets with the rubber boot inside and spin the plug out.

Do the obvious stuff first though... If you can see the COP, make sure the connector is plugged in by removing it, inspecting for bent pins or anything out of the ordinary, then make sure the boot has a little coat of dielectric grease on the seal (keeps the moisture out) and gently plug the bad boy back in, see if it's made a difference.

If not, then step ahead to pulling the COP, and inspect the spark plug 'tube' for damage and evidence of arching through the tube itself (it'll look like little scorch marks on the plastic), look for a damaged cup where it meets the plug, etc.

If nothing obvious there, then pull the plug and look for damage.

And if you don't find anything obviously wrong in your 20 minutes of troubleshooting the above steps, then swap a COP for a neighboring COP and see if the missfire moves with it.

pro-five-oh · #16 November 4th, 2009, 08:23 AM

It sounds like the LS is meeting the same fate as all the other old Lincolns...Service Departments water their mouths when you roll up and they set their systems to "customer gouging" mode.

Its gonna be worse, because the LS is so unique and there'll be a time when Lincoln dealers won't have a whole lotta trained LS techs. I can just see it, that happened with my 1983 Continental when I went there in the late 1990s.

Desert Stallion · #17 November 4th, 2009, 10:16 AM

Take your LS to a Jaguar dealer?

MM90 · #18 November 4th, 2009, 12:01 PM

Unless your LS has the V-8 then it would be pointless to take it to a Jaguar dealer. Which in the case of branflake12 he doesn't. These cop coils are finicky (sp) and they can go bad for any reason at any time. The likelyhood that something the tech did to cause the coil to go bad is pretty far off. Because they put new plugs in it means they had to pull the coils. Pulling them out may have jard the #6 enough to cause it to go bad. I remeber one time I changed the oil in an F-150 and pulled it up for the customer, shut it off and walked away. The customer got in to leave and the truck wouldn't start. Turns out the fuel pump went bad right there and then. Nothing I did to it, it just went bad. Things like that happen all the time, sometimes there are a coincidence and sometimes it was caused by something else. Just my 2cents.

branflake12 · #19 November 4th, 2009, 01:02 PM

Thanks for the help guys.
They did NO service to the engine it after i got the estimate. Just replaced the speed sensors and center hubs under my warranty.

So factory plugs I assume (got it with 33K on it, all maintainence had been done).

Im no tech...Im not even sure what a "COP" looks like (ignition coil?)

MM90 · #20 November 4th, 2009, 03:37 PM

Sorry I didn't realize it was a quote. Anyway we don't work on many LS's here because we are a Ford only dealer. "There is a Lincoln Mercury dealer in town as well as 2 other Ford dealers." I know with the V-8 LS's we have seen problems with the valve cover gaskets leaking oil into the spark plug holes causing a missfire and subsequent damage to the COP Coil. I'm not sure if the 3.0L V-6 is the same way or not. That would be just another thing to look for. Also is it a constant missfire or only when it's cold/hot/idle/under load? If it's not a constant missfire then it's definately not the dealers fault.

Hensley · #21 November 5th, 2009, 08:06 AM

Branflake,

If you don't want to tackle this yourself, you need to find a reputable independent garage to fix your car. You should be able to get everything the Lincoln dealer quoted done for at least half of their price.

LithiumCobalt · #22 November 5th, 2009, 10:11 AM

[QUOTE=MM90;741201] I know with the V-8 LS's we have seen problems with the valve cover gaskets leaking oil into the spark plug holes causing a missfire and subsequent damage to the COP Coil. QUOTE]

This was a consistent defect with some earlier models that I believe Ford actually extended the warranty on because it was such a problem. If this repair has never been done on your car, it's very likely that it could be the problem. The COP (coil over plug) gets fouled out from leaking oil. As stated above, can't remember if this was a problem just with the V8 or with the 6 also. Also, as stated above, the COPs are touchy. THey do go bad once in a while. If you decide to change one or all of them, don't pay retail. Go to tascafordparts.com and order them there for wholesale, brand new OEM.

Fordace · #23 November 7th, 2009, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by branflake12

How do you use that thing?

you go in through each spark plug hole, turn the engine by hand to get the intake valve open, use crushed walnut shells as blasting material, clean the valves (they probably look like hersheys kisses)....do each valve individually....takes time but sure beats yanking the cylinder heads...

branflake12 · #24 December 4th, 2009, 09:09 AM

walnut shells. Interesting.

So, its started vibrating at idle in gear. Not a shake (not like its missing), but like a massage chair, just a very small distance but fast. My wife cant feel it on the passenger side, and I cant hardly either but on the driver's side, its like a vibrating cell phone. Engine air intake filter is dirty and will be replaced, but is this a symptom of carbon build-up? I've been recommended BG-44 to dump in (if i can find it) in lieu of the commercially-available Gumout and STP junk. If that doesnt do the trick a BG fuel system flush was recommended. (By someone i trust...not a shop).

Thoughts?

Dereck · #25 December 4th, 2009, 04:10 PM

Hi

If the LS is the same as the Jaguar V6 then there is a small breather pipe under the intake that splits causing poor idle and stalling (intermittantly).

Regards

Dereck